sabbath

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
The Epistle to the Romans chapter 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.
Law = νόμος (nomos)
Strong: G3551
GK: G3795
a law, Rom. 4:15; 1 Tim. 1:9; the Mosaic law, Mt. 5:17, et al. freq.; the Old Testament Scripture, Jn. 10:34; a legal tie, Rom. 7:2, 3; a law, a rule, standard, Rom. 3:27; a rule of life and conduct, Gal. 6:2, Jas. 1:25
See everywhere nomos appears in the New Testament via teknia.com.


Jesus taught the law. He also said the Sabbath was made for man (us), not man(us) for the Sabbath. Jesus did not vacate the importance or the observance of Sabbath. There is nothing wrong with observing the Sabbath. (sundown Friday unto sundown Saturday). Jesus did so, as did the Apostles even after Jesus departed to Heaven. And the Saint Apostle Paul told us that we should let no one judge us for observing the Sabbath, among practicing other things of God. That pretty much settles it. The Sabbath still stands. The naysayers would have to explain why they rebuke Sabbath keeping while attending church on the day dedicated to the Roman's sun god Mithra and his day of worship;Sunday. (Origins derived from ancient Babylon unto the Greeks, and the Romans adopted the pantheon of the Greeks polytheism and just changed the deities names to Roman ones)

Jesus said until Heaven and Earth pass away not one jot nor tittle shall be removed from the law. He said that prior to crucifixion, and that was His fulfilling the sacrificial aspect of the law. In that sense, the law of sacrifice for transgression was fulfilled and yet, if we remember what He said about the law remaining in effect until Heaven and Earth pass away, we may wish to concede while His sacrifice was the last blood letting for sin, believing in that when a person dead in their sins repents and accepts that sacrifice as their Salvation and the sacrificed as their Savior, that the law is still whole. Because now the sacrificial system is a matter of faith and repentance and putting sins under the blood of the last pure unblemished lamb of God.

Not many here appreciate the study of scriptures or studies/articles concerning Soteriology. They prefer to hold to their own understanding or Denominational fidelity /teachings. Which is fine as it is as the Spirit leads. However, if you would like you may wish to take the time to read an article, scripture supported, that may be food for thought as pertains to Jesus and His teaching of the law. (Note: If you run into a Denomination that teaches Jesus never upheld nor taught the law of God in His ministry, I would suggest you leave once that becomes clear. That church is not in accord with scripture and that will not provide even milk to your spiritual nourishment, much less meat.)
Some who identify with the title of Christian prefer a doctrine that saves their souls, while they believe they are able to do all that they would like to do because no guidance of God applies anymore. Some charge this is the issue with OSAS (Eternal Salvation or, Once Saved Always Saved). This is not true. As we know. God tells us those who are in Christ do not make a habit of sinning. Those who do make a habit of sinning do not have Christ and do not know God. How else would that judgment of God apply if Gods laws are no longer valid?

2012 - (Jesus) The Greatest Law Preacher
2012 -Five Ways Jesus Revealed Grace = This in response to a now closed post where a new arrival attempted to say Jesus never used the word grace in His ministry. The word "Trinity" is not in scripture either, and yet countless Christians find its teaching in scripture.

I hope you or anyone else, find those links of assistance in their studies of Soteriology.
Blessings.
Lots of great points in your post, there.

Let's start with this, it's kind of a side note.
The Greek construction of
under the law
in Romans 3:19 is different from the construction of the same phrase everywhere in Galatians. It's an accident of translation that the same English phrase is used to translate both in the King James.

I'm not sure from the rest of your post if you are agreeing or not that the people that Paul is talking to in Galatians 4:10 and 4:21 were trying to keep the law that God gave to the Israelites in the wilderness (including the ten commandments).

Blessings to you, too!
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,551
2,230
113
www.christiancourier.com
Lots of great points in your post, there.

Let's start with this, it's kind of a side note.
The Greek construction of
under the law
in Romans 3:19 is different from the construction of the same phrase everywhere in Galatians. It's an accident of translation that the same English phrase is used to translate both in the King James.

I'm not sure from the rest of your post if you are agreeing or not that the people that Paul is talking to in Galatians 4:10 and 4:21 were trying to keep the law that God gave to the Israelites in the wilderness (including the ten commandments).

Blessings to you, too!
I agree he was speaking to the people of the church of Galatia as one's keeping the law. However, I also note in the chapter 4 text the Saint Apostle Paul refers to an illness he had suffered when ministering them prior And as such I would wonder if it was to that he was referring and to his teachings during that time when it would appear in Galatians 4 that he had forgotten what he taught concerning the law in his epistle to the Romans in chapter 7.

We know what sin is because of the law. When we are redeemed in Christ our sins are forgiven us yet that does not mean we cannot sin again. It means that the debt for sin no longer awaits us, applies. That's why we are told as those reborn in Christ we do not make a habit of sinning, and those who do make a habit of this are not in Christ and do not know God.
How then are we able to walk aright in the Spirit if we tell ourselves the means by which we are guided unto righteousness, lets call them the rules God sets down for us to follow, the law, no longer applies?
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
I agree he was speaking to the people of the church of Galatia as one's keeping the law. However, I also note in the chapter 4 text the Saint Apostle Paul refers to an illness he had suffered when ministering them prior And as such I would wonder if it was to that he was referring and to his teachings during that time when it would appear in Galatians 4 that he had forgotten what he taught concerning the law in his epistle to the Romans in chapter 7.

We know what sin is because of the law. When we are redeemed in Christ our sins are forgiven us yet that does not mean we cannot sin again. It means that the debt for sin no longer awaits us, applies. That's why we are told as those reborn in Christ we do not make a habit of sinning, and those who do make a habit of this are not in Christ and do not know God.
How then are we able to walk aright in the Spirit if we tell ourselves the means by which we are guided unto righteousness, lets call them the rules God sets down for us to follow, the law, no longer applies?
Well, of all the rules God that set down in the scriptures, which ones do you believe we are to follow today?

All of them, or just certain ones?
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,551
2,230
113
www.christiancourier.com
Well, of all the rules God that set down in the scriptures, which ones do you believe we are to follow today?

All of them, or just certain ones?
What did Jesus teach of them? It is not my belief, it is Jesus teachings that are the foundation for our life. That's why I link outside resources for thread questions pertaining to any branch of Theology and Soteriology studies. There's way too much personal animus toward an individual opinion that may voice their thoughts here. Thankfully that is the minority of responses. While an outside source supported by contextual scripture allows for a fair teaching to be considered by those who are interested.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
What did Jesus teach of them? It is not my belief, it is Jesus teachings that are the foundation for our life. That's why I link outside resources for thread questions pertaining to any branch of Theology and Soteriology studies. There's way too much personal animus toward an individual opinion that may voice their thoughts here. Thankfully that is the minority of responses. While an outside source supported by contextual scripture allows for a fair teaching to be considered by those who are interested.
Well, as I read Jesus' teaching on the subject, this is what stands out to me
Matthew 7: 12. Therefore whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets.

Which I think fits perfectly with what Jesus taught through his apostles later on
Galatians 5: 14. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
 

Wall

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2013
1,417
154
63
Which I think fits perfectly with what Jesus taught through his apostles later on
Galatians 5: 14. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
Your tryin to tell me we need not keep Gods 10 commandments because we are givin a new testament commandment “to love one another”. Problem is the new testament scriptures tell us how to “love one another”.

1JOHN 5 [2] By this WE KNOW THAT WE LOVE THE CHILDREN OF GOD, when we love God, and keep his commandments. [3] For THIS IS THE LOVE OF GOD, THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: and his commandments are not grievous.

To love the children of God, we are to keep the commandments

2JOHN1 [5] And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that WE LOVE ONE ANOTHER.[6] And THIS IS LOVE, THAT WE WALK AFTER HIS COMMANDMENTS. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Love one another. Keep the commandments

JAMES 2 [8] If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF, ye do well: [9] But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.[10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.[11] For he that said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, said also, DO NOT KILL. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

ROMANS 13 [8] Owe no man any thing, but to LOVE ONE ANOTHER: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.[9] For this, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT STEAL, THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.[10] Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

I decided to show the scripture of James 2 and Romans 13 which explain to us how we are to show our love for one another because im sure the next thing i hear is that it is not the 10 commandments being mentioned. But as you can see in these scriptures, adultry killing, stealing, bearing false witness, covetness are mentioned. And i suppose i will hear someone say that since the “keeping of the sabbath” is not mentioned or “thou shalt have no other gods before me" is not mentioned these commandments can be ignored.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
Your tryin to tell me we need not keep Gods 10 commandments because we are givin a new testament commandment “to love one another”.
Not quite. What I'm saying is that the teaching of Jesus regarding the law and the prophets is treating other people as you want to be treated.

And, I quoted Paul's words who, by the power of the holy Spirit, said that the entire law is filled by loving your neighbor as yourself.

So it's not that we don't keep the 10 commandments, it's that they are all fulfilled. Since they are fulfilled, we don't need to do particular physical actions in order to continue keeping them.
That's how I understand it.

1JOHN 5 [2] By this WE KNOW THAT WE LOVE THE CHILDREN OF GOD, when we love God, and keep his commandments. [3] For THIS IS THE LOVE OF GOD, THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: and his commandments are not grievous.
The commandments referred to there, is it the ten commandments? And no others?

Reading further in your post, I see that you refer to James 2 and Romans 13.

And yes, in those passages examples from The ten commandments are mentioned.

But James says by implication that he is using those commandments as examples of the whole law, not the 10.

Paul also says in Romans 13 "and if there be any other commandment", indicating that it can't be just the 10 that he's referring to.

Are the ten commandments good general guidelines for how to love your neighbor? Yes!
But there are going to be times when the specific physical actions required by The ten commandments wouldn't fit with treating others as I want to be treated, imo.
 

Wall

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2013
1,417
154
63
We can be quite sure that the Israelites were not keeping the Sabbath during the enslavement in Egypt. And no mention of law or Sabbaths in connection with Jacob, Joseph and a lot of other notable people, including Abraham.
Including Abraham? Nope.

GENESIS 26 [3] Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I WILL PERFORM THE OATH WHICH I SWARE UNTO ABRAHAM thy father; [4] And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; [5] BECAUSE THAT ABRAHAM OBEYED MY VOICE, and kept my charge, MY COMMANDMENTS, my statutes, and MY LAWS.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,749
8,606
113
Including Abraham? Nope.

GENESIS 26 [3] Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I WILL PERFORM THE OATH WHICH I SWARE UNTO ABRAHAM thy father; [4] And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; [5] BECAUSE THAT ABRAHAM OBEYED MY VOICE, and kept my charge, MY COMMANDMENTS, my statutes, and MY LAWS.
Paul is clear on the matter of when the Mosaic law was given, to whom and to what effect. This is not that.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,749
8,606
113
Including Abraham? Nope.

GENESIS 26 [3] Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I WILL PERFORM THE OATH WHICH I SWARE UNTO ABRAHAM thy father; [4] And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; [5] BECAUSE THAT ABRAHAM OBEYED MY VOICE, and kept my charge, MY COMMANDMENTS, my statutes, and MY LAWS.
This is an excellent verse for futhur study I commend you for the reference thank you. I am as of now conducting more in-depth research. Ineed, there were undoubtedly various laws of YHVH preceding the Law of Moses...but not Levitical. The phenomenal and abrupt birth of the Theocratic Nation undergirded by Levitical law was yet future.
 

Wall

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2013
1,417
154
63
This is an excellent verse for futhur study I commend you for the reference thank you. I am as of now conducting more in-depth research.
Hello cv5. Look into those that HEAR and OBEY His voice.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,931
13,611
113
Reading further in your post, I see that you refer to James 2 and Romans 13.

And yes, in those passages examples from The ten commandments are mentioned.

But James says by implication that he is using those commandments as examples of the whole law, not the 10.
in James 2 he specifically refers to Leviticus 19, not to show partiality, as the fault for which the audience becomes guilty of breaking "the whole law"
he then uses examples from the 10 commandments to prove his point about breaking any part of the law makes one guilty.


so it is entirely deceptive & disingenuous to refer to James 2 as a context for which to hold the believer exclusively under the decalogue, even while pretending Romans 6-8 is not scripture. yet every month we have people publicly & adamantly espousing this false interpretation, even the same people, their error having been explained many times. humans aren't predisposed to listen
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
in James 2 he specifically refers to Leviticus 19, not to show partiality, as the fault for which the audience becomes guilty of breaking "the whole law"
he then uses examples from the 10 commandments to prove his point about breaking any part of the law makes one guilty.
Good point!
 

Wall

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2013
1,417
154
63
Nope. Worshipping on the Lord's day occurred more or less immediately...

"Scripture reports that the New Testament church gathered to worship on Sunday (Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:2; Rev. 1:10).
OK, lets 1st look at Acts 20:7

ACTS 20 [7] And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.[8] And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together.

The above scripture is used by the many to convince people that sunday was being kept as a day of rest instead of the sabbath during the time of Paul. They will point out that on the first day of the week they came together to “break bread” and thus the believers of Pauls time were following sunday as the “new testament” day of rest.

ACTS 2 [42] And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.[43] And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.[44] And all that believed were together, and had all things common;[45] And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.[46] And they, CONTINUING DAILY with one accord in the temple, AND BREAKING BREAD from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

But as you can see they “broke bread” daily. Not just on the first day of the week. They were simply eating. The fact is, you will find no where in the new testament anyone keeping sunday as a day of rest.

LUKE 4 [14] And JESUS returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.[15] And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.[16] And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, AS HIS CUSTOM WAS, he WENT INTO THE SYNAGOGUE ON THE SABBATH DAY, and stood up for to read.

JESUS kept the sabbath

ACTS 17 [2] AND PAUL, AS HIS MANNER WAS, went in unto them, and three SABBATH DAYS reasoned with them out of the scriptures,[3] Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

PAUL kept the sabbath {after the risen Christ}

ACTS 13 [42] And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, THE GENTILES BESOUGHT THAT THESE WORDS MIGHT BE PREACHED TO THEM THE NEXT SABBATH.[43] Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.[44] And THE NEXT SABBATH DAY CAME ALMOST THE WHOLE CITY TOGETHER TO HEAR THE WORD OF GOD.

GENTILES come together on the sabbath to hear the WORD.

Can anyone show me in scripture where the Word of God actually changes or does away with the sabbath day of rest? Anywhere in the new testament? How about in the old testament? Anywhere?

ACTS 25 [7] And when he was come, the Jews which came down from Jerusalem stood round about, and laid many and grievous complaints against Paul, which they could not prove. [8] While he answered for himself, NEITHER AGAINST THE LAW OF THE JEWS, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, HAVE I OFFENDED ANY THING AT ALL.

During the time of Paul there were also many who accused Paul, saying he was not keeping Gods law (which includes the sabbath). Just as it is today, nobody seems to be able to prove that.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
Can anyone show me in scripture where the Word of God actually changes or does away with the sabbath day of rest? Anywhere in the new testament? How about in the old testament? Anywhere?
Its there the problem is someone changed a non time sensitive word rest into one that is sensitive to time.


Matthew 28 King James Version (KJV) In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

The Youngs literal translates it according to the one meaning "rest", and then in other places follow the same kind of idea added time senititive words like week

A word the Greek did not use when the Bible was inspired. They used days . 7 days

Matthew 28 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

It dawned toward the new era of sabbaths the first day for that ceremonial fast. . . not the true fast. Today all day everyday if we mix faith in what we do see or hear and we have entered. .
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,749
8,606
113
Its there the problem is someone changed a non time sensitive word rest into one that is sensitive to time.


Matthew 28 King James Version (KJV) In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

The Youngs literal translates it according to the one meaning "rest", and then in other places follow the same kind of idea added time senititive words like week

A word the Greek did not use when the Bible was inspired. They used days . 7 days

Matthew 28 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,

It dawned toward the new era of sabbaths the first day for that ceremonial fast. . . not the true fast. Today all day everyday if we mix faith in what we do see or hear and we have entered. .
Christ was raised on the day of Firstfruits.....always a Sunday. Always.
 

Wall

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2013
1,417
154
63
Nope. Worshipping on the Lord's day occurred more or less immediately...

"Scripture reports that the New Testament church gathered to worship on Sunday (Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:2; Rev. 1:10).
OK. Now lets look at 1Cor.16

1 Corinthians 16:1-3 (KJV)
1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.

Youre claiming 1Cor.16 is talking bout a gathering for worship. YIKES! Not even worth a comment
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
Lots of great points in your post, there.

Let's start with this, it's kind of a side note.
The Greek construction of
under the law
in Romans 3:19 is different from the construction of the same phrase everywhere in Galatians. It's an accident of translation that the same English phrase is used to translate both in the King James.

I'm not sure from the rest of your post if you are agreeing or not that the people that Paul is talking to in Galatians 4:10 and 4:21 were trying to keep the law that God gave to the Israelites in the wilderness (including the ten commandments).

Blessings to you, too!
If there is a difference .What is it?

The perfect or complete must be rightly divided if we are to find it.

Three laws listed in the bible .

1)There is the letter of the law death .It will be in effect till the last day.

2)There are ceremonial laws set aside as shadows . They do not add to the faith or take away.

3)There is the law of faith the unseen spiritual law that creates a new and does the healing..

Together the law of faith the unseen eternal is mixed with the letter of the law the temporal. In order to make one perfect law. Having neither the written law death or the unseen law of healing faith apart from one another.

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal
 

Wall

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2013
1,417
154
63
OK. Now lets look at 1Cor.16

1 Corinthians 16:1-3 (KJV)
1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.

Youre claiming 1Cor.16 is talking bout a gathering for worship. YIKES! Not even worth a comment
Alright. One comment. cv5 is claiming that the church come together for worship on sunday so Paul does not have to be bothered with it. Again! YIKES!
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
If there is a difference .What is it?
Many people who self-identify as law keepers want to use Romans 3:19 to show that all the world is under the law, always and continually.


but I think what it actually says is that the things that the law says, it says to those who are *in* the law.


But using a different Greek construction, Paul says that the state of being under the law, which is the state that Jesus was born in, is a state that we are not in.


That is to say, those who walk by the spirit are not *under* the law.