Is God Good?

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K

kaylagrl

Guest
#21
#21
Dave-L said:
“And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.” 1 Kings 22:19–23 (KJV 1900)
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God allowing a lying spirit to speak to the king doesn't mean He created evil. He set a final judgement on a rebellious kings head who had been given many chances to repent. That doesn't mean God is the creator of evil, He is not.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#22
Jan 13, 2016
16,665
3,541
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#22
Dave-L said:
“And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.” 1 Kings 22:19–23 (KJV 1900)
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Ok, what’s your point? Did the Lord lie or the lying spirit? The Lord allowed it, but did not cause it.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#23
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
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#23
kaylagrl said:
God allowing a lying spirit to speak to the king doesn't mean He created evil. He set a final judgement on a rebellious kings head who had been given many chances to repent. That doesn't mean God is the creator of evil, He is not.
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“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7 (KJV 1900)
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#24
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
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#24
John146 said:
Ok, what’s your point? Did the Lord lie or the lying spirit? The Lord allowed it, but did not cause it.
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It says God sent it. = Caused it.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#25
Jun 30, 2015
24,733
13,406
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#25
John146 said:
Technically? Absolutely! Show me where Scripture states God causes sin? For He cannot tempt man in this manner.
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You have overlooked something very important, resulting in a false dichotomy. I would encourage you to read Genesis 3 again.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#27
Jan 13, 2016
16,665
3,541
113
#27
Dino246 said:
You have overlooked something very important, resulting in a false dichotomy. I would encourage you to read Genesis 3 again.
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Genesis 3 does not say God causes sin or tempts man to sin.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#28
#28
Dave-L said:
“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7 (KJV 1900)
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Calamity not evil, the words are different.
 
S

ScottyPchristian

Banned
#30
Apr 9, 2020
136
30
28
#30
JohnR7 said:
Everyone may have a different answer for this and that is fine. In the Bible we read about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. This and the tree of life. I wonder: is good and evil balanced? Is there as much good as there is evil in this world? In the law of thermodynamics we have equilibrium (a state in which opposing forces or influences are balanced). I talk about river rocks and how the water forms them in a way that they are very easy to balance. So we know there is a lot of balance in the universe, cosmos or world we live in. We ask why there is so much suffering. I know people that love to play the victim card. Yet if there is just as much pleasure as there is pain. If here is just as much good as there is evil - then everything in life and in the universe balances itself out and cancels itself out. In quantum physics everything would cancel itself out. So there has to be a million and one positive particles and a million negative in order for us to exist. It there was more negative then positive then I would think this would cancel everything out so that nothing could exist. Although you cannot have nothing without something to compare it to.

Then of course we do hear that God is abundantly above and beyond all that we could ever ask or think. If there were as much good somewhere as there is evil, pain, misery and suffering in this world, I would think that would be substantial. We also hear that we need to die to self so we can live for God. I am not sure how that plays into all of this.
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God is good, but we can't understand Him because we were all born with a sin nature and our hearts are wicked above all things. Some have accused God of being the author of evil, just because He created us with a measure of autonomy. He also created poison ivy, but we can't blame Him for our death if we drink it.
God did preordain the whole of mankind's history, from the beginning to the end. He even knew that we would sin, so He prepared the cross for Christ before He created the world.
We will never understand God's ways, because His ways are infinitely higher than ours and our puny little minds can't even begin to grasp His majesty and wisdom.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#32
Jan 13, 2016
16,665
3,541
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#32
Dave-L said:
“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” Isaiah 45:7 (KJV 1900)
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Evil is not necessarily sin. For example, God was going to overthrow Nineveh. Scripture calls this evil. Evil is destruction in this context.

Jonah 3
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#34
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
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#34
kaylagrl said:
I heard you the first time. God did not create evil. God has "allowed" evil to exist and given us a choice. But God did not create evil, that is un-Biblical.
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He allowed Satan, a liar from the beginning, to exist?
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#36
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
#36
John146 said:
Satan was an anointed cherub before this. He is the father of lies, meaning he was the first.
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So God didn't know what he was doing? Also, you are taking scripture out of context using it this way.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#38
Jul 31, 2013
36,683
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#38
Dino246 said:
The problem with the syllogism is that it posits two unbiblical premises and an unbiblical conclusion. They aren't anti-biblical, but they also aren't sourced in Scripture.

The Bible teaches that God is indeed both good and almighty. It teaches that He will crush evil eventually. We live in the in-between time, when God is in the process of destroying evil as He in His wisdom has determined to do. The so-called "problem of evil" exists only because humans are impatient and arrogant. :)
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Clark posit is anti-Biblical:

God is not the author of evil​
(1 Corinthians 14:33)​

Clark says He is.

Dave-L said:
Clark first asks; "How can the existence of God be harmonized with the existence of evil?"

If God is all-good, He would want to destroy evil.

If God is all-powerful, He is able to destroy evil. But evil still exists.

It seems that God cannot be both all-good and all-powerful. However, Christianity teaches that He is both. This is the problem of evil."

Clark stated that "God's causing a man to sin is not sin. There is no law, superior to God, which forbids him to decree sinful acts. Sin presupposes a law, for sin is lawlessness." Clark explained that "God is above law" because "the laws that God imposes on men do not apply to the divine nature."
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Clark essentially says, God is above all law, so when God authors evil, it doesn't count as evil.
Clark's argument would in a sense be calling evil "good" if he held axiomatically that God is good and whatever He does is good -- but Clark does not keep the premise that God is good; rather, he calls God evil. he describes God as if He is a tyrant who is beyond reproach only by virtue of His throne: Clark says God authors evil, creates and decrees sin, but that all the evil Clark accuses God of is 'not prosecutable'

this is a terrible argument, and naturally so, because from the outset Clark denies the goodness of God. Clark replaces the goodness of God with as it were, 'diplomatic immunity' or 'royal purview' -- Clark ((at least in the way @Dave-L has presented the argument)) speaks of God as though He is evil, guilty of sin, responsible for all wrong, and only escaping judgement because there doesn't happen to be a court of appeals. he leaves himself as God's judge in the court of opinion, as though God is OJ Simpson or something -- everyone knows he did it but alas the justice system is unable to bring God to account.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#39
Jul 31, 2013
36,683
13,139
113
#39
Dave-L said:
If God is all-good, He would want to destroy evil.

If God is all-powerful, He is able to destroy evil. But evil still exists.
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there are logical and epistemological problems here.

the notion that evil would not exist if God is good is a presupposition with basis in a very human idea of what is good. this statement is man supposing to think God's thoughts for Him -- imagining that man knows a better way to run the universe than God does.

here the error is failing to acknowledge the goodness of God again. the statement is questioning the goodness of God under the assumption that the existence of evil is not good. yet God has 'constrained all under sin in order that He might have mercy on all' -- this doesn't make sin 'good' but it shows a reason for the existence of it; in order that God's mercy may be manifested. mercy is good. mercy doesn't exist when there is no need for mercy. is then the existence of evil, itself evil?

a second error is framing these things within temporal experience. God's existence is not contained in time, but the existence of evil is within the framework of experiential timelike observation. God speaks of what is not as though it is, and calls into existence things which aren't - the vocabulary of prophecy is the fullness of completion of things not yet begun: it is an observational standpoint outside of the timelike eventspace sequence, knowing the end from before the beginning, and seeing them simultaneously -- and this is how God is able to observe, though man in finitude of knowledge ((hence understanding)) presently cannot.
but in the fullness of time all evil will be judged, and every enemy of God, who is good, will be brought under His feet. in the final analysis, evil is temporary. at the end of things, it will not persist - so its existence is only an interim vapor. in that sense, for man to judge God over what is essentially the fruit of the freedom of man to reject the goodness of God is like calling a cake a bad cake before it has baked. of course it isn't edible now, it needs time in the oven.



but the foremost problem is foregoing this:

axiom 1: God is good
corollary 1: everything God does is good
corollary 2: God does no evil

approach the supposed 'problem' with this algebra. you will find the singular and inevitable conclusion that man is vain, foolish, dim, and speaks without knowledge.
 
watchman333

watchman333

Banned
#40
Jan 24, 2020
51
40
18
B/W Shasta & Lassen
sataniscoming.com
#40
JohnR7 said:
Everyone may have a different answer for this and that is fine. In the Bible we read about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. This and the tree of life. I wonder: is good and evil balanced? Is there as much good as there is evil in this world? In the law of thermodynamics we have equilibrium (a state in which opposing forces or influences are balanced). I talk about river rocks and how the water forms them in a way that they are very easy to balance. So we know there is a lot of balance in the universe, cosmos or world we live in. We ask why there is so much suffering. I know people that love to play the victim card. Yet if there is just as much pleasure as there is pain. If here is just as much good as there is evil - then everything in life and in the universe balances itself out and cancels itself out. In quantum physics everything would cancel itself out. So there has to be a million and one positive particles and a million negative in order for us to exist. It there was more negative then positive then I would think this would cancel everything out so that nothing could exist. Although you cannot have nothing without something to compare it to.

Then of course we do hear that God is abundantly above and beyond all that we could ever ask or think. If there were as much good somewhere as there is evil, pain, misery and suffering in this world, I would think that would be substantial. We also hear that we need to die to self so we can live for God. I am not sure how that plays into all of this.
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VERY!
 
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