Jesus as the prophesised Christ/Messiah

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,424
6,703
113
#21
Does He_ Do you believe the prophet, Isaiah, lied to us when he wrote down that Jesus would be known as God Almighty, The Eternal Father, Counselor, Prince of peace and more.

You have said it in another post, Yahweh will manifest Himself in whatever manner suits Him, yet He is One Maker.

Do not say you understand themystery of our Maker, no one does, but the least that any can do in faith is believe what He gave to be written down, abut Himself in all three persons in the Babe born to Mary.....Isaiah 9:6.
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
3,165
3,665
113
#22
Yes, that was the sacrifice of the lamb and was given a tomb among the rich as Isaiah 53 states.
However the reserection was never a prerequisite of the prophesised Messiah.
The Resurrection was not a prerequisite as you say and yet the Messiah did it anyway. God is good all the time. All the time God is good. 😎
 

Jon_23

New member
May 8, 2020
14
1
3
#23
Does He_ Do you believe the prophet, Isaiah, lied to us when he wrote down that Jesus would be known as God Almighty, The Eternal Father, Counselor, Prince of peace and more.

You have said it in another post, Yahweh will manifest Himself in whatever manner suits Him, yet He is One Maker.

Do not say you understand themystery of our Maker, no one does, but the least that any can do in faith is believe what He gave to be written down, abut Himself in all three persons in the Babe born to Mary.....Isaiah 9:6.
Iam not saying that I understand the mystery of our Maker. I just quoted what Jesus said in John 14.

Since you bring up the prophecy of the birth in Isaiah. We can look at the original prophecy Isaiah 7:13-14. In this the mother is to name the child Immanuel however when we look at the birth of Jesus in Mathew 1:21, the child is named Jesus not Immanuel by the the father not the mother as prophesised in Isaiah 7:13.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,915
817
113
#24
Hello, I would be interested in hearing the argument for Jesus as the prophesised Christ/ Messiah in the Old Testament.

The prophesy that fits his life best and I believe could have actually been him is Isaiah 53, the lamb of God. However if we read closely, we will see that in Isaiah 53:12, it says that the he will only be aloted a portion with the great and divide the spoil with the strong. This is not the equity that the Messiaiah/Christ will receive. Messiaiah will receive equity of command over the entire world. As most of this prophesy fits the life of Jesus of Nazareth. From being despised, not opening his mouth in defence to his accousers, a grave with the rich, through perversion of justice he was taken away etc.
To me, the only part that does not fit the claims of the New Testament, is the equity received by this individual. Isaiah 53:12 is clearly not the equity which will be alotted to Messiaiah. Therefore the lamb of God being Jesus as the best candidate, could not be Messaiah or Christ. To make it simple, Lamb of God (Isaiah 53) cannot be Messaiah/Christ.

Here is list of other Messaianic prophesies and prophecies that the New Testement claim Jesus fulfilled which do not match the life of Jesus.

1 Chronicals 17
Isaiah 7:13
Psalm 132
Isaiah 9:3-7
Psalm 118 5-24
Isaiah 28
Psalm 22
Psalm 34

As the disiples and apostles knew, the fulfilment of the old Testement prophecies were fundemental to their claim of Jesus as the Messaiah.
Please feel free to include these passages listed in the New Testement.
Welcome, Jon.

It appears you're dealing with an issue the 1st-century scribes and religious leaders were wrestling with. "How can this man be the Messiah?? He hasn't destroyed Israel's enemies or ushered in peace or a multitude of other prophecies in scripture that describe the Messiah as a regal king."

What they couldn't see was that the scriptures also detail a split-work of restoration. It is recognized today as two separate works, and to reconcile these contradictory sets of prophecies today many Jewish rabbis are of the mind that there are perhaps "two prophesied messiahs":

- Messiah Ben Joseph (the suffering servant)
- Messiah Ben David (the conquering king)

But below are a few gems that may help with understanding this dichotomy so that what appears on the surface as contradiction will prove to be rooted in a deeper union of purpose in the plan of the Almighty.

1. Any person the Almighty designates to perform in the office of king/governor/leader or priest/prophet is a "messiah", as the word simply means "one who is anointed". King Saul and King David were messiahs as they were anointed by Samuel. And before them, Aaron was a messiah as he was anointed with oil.

Oil was the physical representation of the Spirit that would be placed on these men to perform the work the Almighty had for them. So the "lamb of God" was anointed for His purpose, which makes him "messiah".


2. From the time of Adam to Israel's time in Egypt, the two roles of priest and king were possessed by a single person. It is the original "order" established in the earth by the Almighty, which by the time of the New Testament letters was known as Melchizedec Priesthood to reference the king of Salem who also offered priestly sacrifice, and who Abraham tithed to.

Adam was a priest-king, having dominion AND offering sacrifice, same with Noah, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But by the time of Jacob's sons the birthright was split. The scepter (king) would be Judah's, the (priest)hood was Levi's and the blessing/fruitfulness would be Joseph's.

So the firstborn's work is split.


3. There are hints in scripture - and in life - that testify to the split-work of prophecy/redemption (to cleanse sin and defeat death with new life):

- An animal with a split-hoof that ruminates (i.e. food that ascends and descends the stomach) is considered "clean".

- Jacob's brides were split by the labor he was to perform for laban. Even Jacob was torn between the two women (Leah | Jacob & his work | Rachel). Leah had "weak eyes" (i.e. could see well) while Rachel was the desired bride.

- The weird birth of Judah's twin sons; the birth of Zerah was split by Perez (Zerah | Perez | Zerah). Zerah means "light", while Perez means "breaker". The firstborn secured the rights (with the scarlet thread), next there was a break, and then the firstborn appears again as the "light" springs forth from the woman.

- The Kingdom of Israel was split between the northern and southern houses. Ezekiel 37 prophesies that the resurrection (new life) will coincide with their reunion.

- The prophetic vision given to Zechariah of the Word to Zerubbabel was "Olive Trees split by a Lampstand" (Tree | Lamp | Tree). These Olive trees fed the oil to the lamp. Again oil represents the Almighty's Spirit, while the lampstand represents congregation/assembly.

- The prophetic vision was given to Zechariah of "Mountains split by chariots" (Mountain - Chariots - Mountain). Mountain represents the government, while chariots represent war/strife/battle.

- To ritually cleanse the leper, the priest was to have twin doves; kill the first dove, dip the second dove in the blood of the first and then release the second dove alive into a field. Leprosy represents sin. So there was a death work to provide the blood, followed by a living work of freedom (covered by the blood).

- For the day of atonement, the High priest was to have twin goats; kill the first goat, sprinkle its blood onto the mercy seat, and then confess the sins of the people onto the head of the second goat, and then lead that goat into the wilderness alive to completely remove sin from the congregation. Again, death work followed by a living work of completely removing sin.

----

The work of redemption is a split-work set in two parts. Both works are necessary to cleanse sin and to establish new life. This is the full work of the Husbandman for His bride. To further prophecy this, in holy matrimony, a bride is split by the work of her husband, securing their covenant with blood, and then producing new life as the fruit of that union. Romans 1:20 - For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and divine nature; so that they are without excuse.

The first work of the Messiah was a "death" work to secure the rights of the firstborn, but the bride couldn't see things clearly as they asked if the kingdom would be restored to them at that time. The light had indeed come, the Spirit was given, the government was present, but it wasn't yet time. There would be a break. There was more work for Him to do for His desired bride.

The reason why you're finding a discrepancy in certain prophecies is the same reason why the Messiah stopped reading the prophecy of Isaiah 61, mid-sentence, never speaking about the Day of Vengeance of the Almighty. Most of the prophecies of the Promised One are broken into two parts to represent the split-work of the Husband for His bride for the purpose of holy union and new life.

The second work of the Messiah will be of "life" and "light" and "glory", He will provide the 2nd outpouring of His Spirit and receive his desired bride and the fruit of His work. He will return with his clothes dipped in blood from conquering and reign in his government; removing sin completely. The bride is currently in her labor pains from the union. Soon the new children will be born and she will no longer be split. Then those kingly passages you've mentioned will be fulfilled.
 

Jon_23

New member
May 8, 2020
14
1
3
#25
Welcome, Jon.

It appears you're dealing with an issue the 1st-century scribes and religious leaders were wrestling with. "How can this man be the Messiah?? He hasn't destroyed Israel's enemies or ushered in peace or a multitude of other prophecies in scripture that describe the Messiah as a regal king."

What they couldn't see was that the scriptures also detail a split-work of restoration. It is recognized today as two separate works, and to reconcile these contradictory sets of prophecies today many Jewish rabbis are of the mind that there are perhaps "two prophesied messiahs":

- Messiah Ben Joseph (the suffering servant)
- Messiah Ben David (the conquering king)

But below are a few gems that may help with understanding this dichotomy so that what appears on the surface as contradiction will prove to be rooted in a deeper union of purpose in the plan of the Almighty.

1. Any person the Almighty designates to perform in the office of king/governor/leader or priest/prophet is a "messiah", as the word simply means "one who is anointed". King Saul and King David were messiahs as they were anointed by Samuel. And before them, Aaron was a messiah as he was anointed with oil.

Oil was the physical representation of the Spirit that would be placed on these men to perform the work the Almighty had for them. So the "lamb of God" was anointed for His purpose, which makes him "messiah".


2. From the time of Adam to Israel's time in Egypt, the two roles of priest and king were possessed by a single person. It is the original "order" established in the earth by the Almighty, which by the time of the New Testament letters was known as Melchizedec Priesthood to reference the king of Salem who also offered priestly sacrifice, and who Abraham tithed to.

Adam was a priest-king, having dominion AND offering sacrifice, same with Noah, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But by the time of Jacob's sons the birthright was split. The scepter (king) would be Judah's, the (priest)hood was Levi's and the blessing/fruitfulness would be Joseph's.

So the firstborn's work is split.


3. There are hints in scripture - and in life - that testify to the split-work of prophecy/redemption (to cleanse sin and defeat death with new life):

- An animal with a split-hoof that ruminates (i.e. food that ascends and descends the stomach) is considered "clean".

- Jacob's brides were split by the labor he was to perform for laban. Even Jacob was torn between the two women (Leah | Jacob & his work | Rachel). Leah had "weak eyes" (i.e. could see well) while Rachel was the desired bride.

- The weird birth of Judah's twin sons; the birth of Zerah was split by Perez (Zerah | Perez | Zerah). Zerah means "light", while Perez means "breaker". The firstborn secured the rights (with the scarlet thread), next there was a break, and then the firstborn appears again as the "light" springs forth from the woman.

- The Kingdom of Israel was split between the northern and southern houses. Ezekiel 37 prophesies that the resurrection (new life) will coincide with their reunion.

- The prophetic vision given to Zechariah of the Word to Zerubbabel was "Olive Trees split by a Lampstand" (Tree | Lamp | Tree). These Olive trees fed the oil to the lamp. Again oil represents the Almighty's Spirit, while the lampstand represents congregation/assembly.

- The prophetic vision was given to Zechariah of "Mountains split by chariots" (Mountain - Chariots - Mountain). Mountain represents the government, while chariots represent war/strife/battle.

- To ritually cleanse the leper, the priest was to have twin doves; kill the first dove, dip the second dove in the blood of the first and then release the second dove alive into a field. Leprosy represents sin. So there was a death work to provide the blood, followed by a living work of freedom (covered by the blood).

- For the day of atonement, the High priest was to have twin goats; kill the first goat, sprinkle its blood onto the mercy seat, and then confess the sins of the people onto the head of the second goat, and then lead that goat into the wilderness alive to completely remove sin from the congregation. Again, death work followed by a living work of completely removing sin.

----

The work of redemption is a split-work set in two parts. Both works are necessary to cleanse sin and to establish new life. This is the full work of the Husbandman for His bride. To further prophecy this, in holy matrimony, a bride is split by the work of her husband, securing their covenant with blood, and then producing new life as the fruit of that union. Romans 1:20 - For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and divine nature; so that they are without excuse.

The first work of the Messiah was a "death" work to secure the rights of the firstborn, but the bride couldn't see things clearly as they asked if the kingdom would be restored to them at that time. The light had indeed come, the Spirit was given, the government was present, but it wasn't yet time. There would be a break. There was more work for Him to do for His desired bride.

The reason why you're finding a discrepancy in certain prophecies is the same reason why the Messiah stopped reading the prophecy of Isaiah 61, mid-sentence, never speaking about the Day of Vengeance of the Almighty. Most of the prophecies of the Promised One are broken into two parts to represent the split-work of the Husband for His bride for the purpose of holy union and new life.

The second work of the Messiah will be of "life" and "light" and "glory", He will provide the 2nd outpouring of His Spirit and receive his desired bride and the fruit of His work. He will return with his clothes dipped in blood from conquering and reign in his government; removing sin completely. The bride is currently in her labor pains from the union. Soon the new children will be born and she will no longer be split. Then those kingly passages you've mentioned will be fulfilled.
Thank you! Very nice explanation. By no means was I denying Jesus as a Messaiah/ Christ as David and Saul were but mearly as the conquering king as prophesised and different from mainstream christanities belief.

I look forward into studying more on the two parts of your prophesy.

Thanks again.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,773
113
#26
Please let me know what Iam missing in my doubts.
You are missing a whole raft of prophecies and their fulfillment. But unbelieving Jews do the same thing, and claim that Jesus of Nazareth was not their Messiah. That's called wilful blindness.

All you had to do was look at Micah 5:2 and see that even the Jews understood this to be the prophecy of their Messiah/King. But we could start with Micah 5:1.

CHRIST THE JUDGE OF ISRAEL WAS SMITTEN WITH A ROD UPON THE CHEEK
1 Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the Judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek. (Mic 5:1)
And they spit upon him, and took the reed*, and smote him on the head. (Mt 27:30)
The reed was in fact a rod (a reed-staff according to Thayer's Lexicon), and the cheek is included in the head. A blow to the cheek could also be a blow to the head, and vice versa. Is Christ the Judge of Israel? Absolutely. Not just of Israel but of all mankind (Acts 17:31)

CHRIST THE KING AND RULER OF ISRAEL WAS TO BE BORN IN BETHLEHEM
2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be Ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. (Mic 5:2)

When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ [Messiah] should be born. And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet, And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel. (Mt 2:3-6)

What the chief priests and scribes deliberately omitted was the fact that Christ would also be the everlasting God: ...whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. This would have put the scare into Herod and all the religious leaders of the Jews. But it was right there in the prophecy of Micah, and they conveniently left it out.

Now if after this one passage you refuse to believe that Jesus was the promised Messiah/King and Judge of Israel, it will mean that you too choose to be wilfully blind. And we are commanded to leave such people alone.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,424
6,703
113
#27
Iam not saying that I understand the mystery of our Maker. I just quoted what Jesus said in John 14.

Since you bring up the prophecy of the birth in Isaiah. We can look at the original prophecy Isaiah 7:13-14. In this the mother is to name the child Immanuel however when we look at the birth of Jesus in Mathew 1:21, the child is named Jesus not Immanuel by the the father not the mother as prophesised in Isaiah 7:13.
I do not think yo want to go into the linguistics of the translations from Hebrew . Translating all the titles given Jesus, even Jesus from its origin,Yeshua *transliteration* you will discover they all say the same......…..He is our Maker, as stated in the first chapter of John, the Evangile.