Catholicism vs Protestantism

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Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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well, Muslims think they are worshipping the true God, who they think is not a trinity.

so again, like you say, we have to calculate the end result, not interprate letter by letter.

I think that to be fair, if one is going to read the scriptures with a loose interpretation, then one would also read everything else with a loose interpretation.

otherwise, I think a person would be using "unequal weights", which the Bible says God doesn't like.
I agree muslim think they worship true God but catholic lie by saying
Muslim together with US adore one mercy God, mankind judge oN the last day

Did muslim adore Christian or trinity God?
 
B

Bede

Guest

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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"My name forever" Exodus 3:15

The Jews are in covenant relationship with and worship YHVH.

Muslims worship a different god who among other things
Cannot be personal
Has no son
Requires an oath to a false prophet.
Requires daily physical bowing to a sacred stone in the east.
I hear what you're saying!

to me it's kind of a philosophical question: when are two people worshiping the true God together?

if Jews can deny the trinity and deny that Jesus was sent from God, then it must be possible to be very wrong about a lot of things and still worship God.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,000
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thanks!
I found it in the second link
423 By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic (Church) outside which we believe that no one is saved.
https://sensusfidelium.us/the-sourc...durand-of-osca-and-his-waldensian-companions/

I remember reading about the Waldensians in a book called "the name of the Rose" by Umberto Eco.
You are welcome, Dan :) Would you agree, then, that @Bede was wrong to claim "Do you realise that that calling the Catholic Church (CC) the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) was a pejorative term invented by Protestants at the Reformation and therefore not only incorrect but insulting" ? Since a pope used the phrase hundreds of years prior to that, calling it a pejorative intended to insult also seems like overkill, and a playing of the victim card.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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The link doesn't say Roman Catholic Church
The Roman Church is mentioned no less than four times. Is it not Catholic? Gosh.

One mention by pope INNOCENT III (in 1208) specifically says:

423 By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics but
the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic (Church) outside which we believe that no one is saved.


It is true: expecting you to admit when you are wrong is expecting too much:rolleyes:
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,000
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I'll be glad to talk about that, if you're interested.
Jackson and I had been going back and forth for many many pages!
I have seen you and Jackson going back and forth for months and months and months, perhaps not always on this same issue. I do not have an inclination for that type of prolonged dialogue on such matters. Do you think either of you have changed how the other thinks or what they believe on these issues? :giggle: I would like to commend both of you for doing so respectfully with each other :D Even if you have not made any real headway with each other, perhaps others have benefitted in some way from your conversatiton :)
 
B

Bede

Guest
The Roman Church is mentioned no less than four times. Is it not Catholic? Gosh.

One mention by pope INNOCENT III (in 1208) specifically says:

423 By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics but
the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic (Church) outside which we believe that no one is saved.


It is true: expecting you to admit when you are wrong is expecting too much:rolleyes:
We are discussing the term Roman Catholic Church and nowhere in that document does it use that term.
What you quote is Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic (Church).
Note the comma after Roman. That is very important.


At the first Vatican Council (1868-70) the English bishops argued against the term Roman Catholic Church which appeared in a draft. They wanted the term Roman removed, or at least a comma put in after Roman. Eventually the term "the holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church" or, by separating each adjective, as "the holy, catholic, apostolic and Roman Church". (quote from Wikipedia).

The Catechism is the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
I've looked through four documents from the Second Vatican Council where I would expect the name of the Church to appear:

Nostra Aetate (The Relation Of The Church To Non-Christian Religions
Gaudium Et Spes (The Church In The Modern World
Lumen Gentium Several (Dogmatic Constitution On The Church)
Orientalium Ecclesiarum (The Catholic Churches Of The Eastern Rite)

All use only the term Catholic Church (several times in two documents), except once the term Holy Catholic Church is used.

Catholic Church is the name of the Church not Roman Catholic Church.
 

Nebuchadnezzer

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2019
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Constantine never made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire.
You are correct, but another of the little horn (Roman Emperor) did.
Thanks for the correction, here it is.

In 313, the struggles of the Early Church, were lessened by the Edict of Milan legalization of Christianity by the Emperor Constantine I. In 380, under Emperor Theodosius, Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire by the Edict of Thessaloniki.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,000
26,134
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We are discussing the term Roman Catholic Church and nowhere in that document does it use that term.
What you quote is Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic (Church).
Note the comma after Roman. That is very important.


At the first Vatican Council (1868-70) the English bishops argued against the term Roman Catholic Church which appeared in a draft. They wanted the term Roman removed, or at least a comma put in after Roman. Eventually the term "the holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church" or, by separating each adjective, as "the holy, catholic, apostolic and Roman Church". (quote from Wikipedia).

The Catechism is the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
I've looked through four documents from the Second Vatican Council where I would expect the name of the Church to appear:

Nostra Aetate (The Relation Of The Church To Non-Christian Religions
Gaudium Et Spes (The Church In The Modern World
Lumen Gentium Several (Dogmatic Constitution On The Church)
Orientalium Ecclesiarum (The Catholic Churches Of The Eastern Rite)

All use only the term Catholic Church (several times in two documents), except once the term Holy Catholic Church is used.

Catholic Church is the name of the Church not Roman Catholic Church.
Please excuse me for saying how ridiculous it is for you to pretend the pope was not referring to the Catholic church as the Roman Catholic Church. The fact remains that it was a pope who first called the Catholic church Roman, centuries before the reformation.
 

Nebuchadnezzer

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2019
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Constantine never made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire.
A tecnicality you find to hide the truth

The emperor [Constantine] became a great patron of the Church and set a precedent for the position of the Christian emperor within the Church and raised the notions of orthodoxy, Christendom, ecumenical councils, and the state church of the Roman Empire declared by edict in 380.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great_and_Christianity#:~:text=The emperor became a great,declared by edict in 380.

So here you have a non-believer, a non baptized person, a pagan, who took control over the church. He dictated events and changed the course and structure of the church.

The influence of Constantine would help solidify a strong role for the Roman emperor in the selection process of pope.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishops_of_Rome_under_Constantine_the_Great

To paraphrase, Constantine made the pope a stooge for the Roman Empire.
 

Nebuchadnezzer

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2019
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Jews don't believe God is Trinity. Does that mean they don't worship the one true God?
Yes.

1 John 2:21-23
I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
 

Nebuchadnezzer

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2019
1,134
205
63
We are discussing the term Roman Catholic Church and nowhere in that document does it use that term.
What you quote is Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic (Church).
Note the comma after Roman. That is very important.


At the first Vatican Council (1868-70) the English bishops argued against the term Roman Catholic Church which appeared in a draft. They wanted the term Roman removed, or at least a comma put in after Roman. Eventually the term "the holy Catholic Apostolic Roman Church" or, by separating each adjective, as "the holy, catholic, apostolic and Roman Church". (quote from Wikipedia).

The Catechism is the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
I've looked through four documents from the Second Vatican Council where I would expect the name of the Church to appear:

Nostra Aetate (The Relation Of The Church To Non-Christian Religions
Gaudium Et Spes (The Church In The Modern World
Lumen Gentium Several (Dogmatic Constitution On The Church)
Orientalium Ecclesiarum (The Catholic Churches Of The Eastern Rite)

All use only the term Catholic Church (several times in two documents), except once the term Holy Catholic Church is used.

Catholic Church is the name of the Church not Roman Catholic Church.
This PROVES my POINT!!!!!!!!

Anyone who cites the Nicene Creed is pledging allegiance to the Holy Catholic and Apostolic [Roman] Church.
They of course leave out the Roman to deceive, but as seen in the above context Roman is clearly inferred but omitted from the Nicene Creed.

Deceitful as the devil they are!

Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed[edit]
What is known as the "Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed" or the "Nicene–Constantinopolitan Creed"[21] received this name because of a belief that it was adopted at the Second Ecumenical Council held in Constantinople in 381 as a modification of the original Nicene Creed of 325. In that light, it also came to be very commonly known simply as the "Nicene Creed". It is the only authoritative ecumenical statement of the Christian faith accepted by the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodoxy, the Church of the East, much of Protestantism including the Anglican communion.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
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The link doesn't say Roman Catholic Church
technically, you are correct.

but I think it does say that the church is "Holy Roman".

of course, it was probably written in Latin, so what we are looking at is an English translation.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,707
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Jews don't believe God is Trinity. Does that mean they don't worship the one true God?
Apart from Christ they don't worship the one true God; BUT (unlike the Muslim Koran) the OT they have (if only they believed it) contains the words of the One True God.
 
B

Bede

Guest
Please excuse me for saying how ridiculous it is for you to pretend the pope was not referring to the Catholic church as the Roman Catholic Church. The fact remains that it was a pope who first called the Catholic church Roman, centuries before the reformation.
You just can't accept the truth
"expecting you to admit when you are wrong is expecting too much"