"Not by works" - false!

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Fastfredy0

Fastfredy0

Banned
#2,001
May 22, 2020
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#2,001
eternally-gratefull said:
This Calvinist Arminian debate causes that very type of mocking tone which we should hate
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Calvinist Arminian debate ... what is going on here is the same thing but lacks the definitions of Calvinist Arminian. But, in my opinion, fairly civil discourse. Obviously, ones bias has one prefer the combatant(s) that agree with oneself.

Aside: Most participants seem to be mature Christians and not likely to change their minds. Not sure if this discourse would benefit those that could be persuaded. *ponders to himself*

I wonder .. if you had 100 people brought up in a household of Arminian persuasion and another 100 people brought up in a household of Calvinistic persuasion ... then you sent them to a seminary of the opposite persuasion to "detox" them so to speak .... I wonder what the results would be. hmmm

oh well ...
 
Fastfredy0

Fastfredy0

Banned
#2,002
May 22, 2020
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#2,002
Judges1318 said:
As you can see, Calvinism believes you must always believe, and always live a holy life, or you were never saved to begin with, not because those things are works that earn you salvation.
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I prefer my definition as yours could be misinterpreted. Your definition is correct, but could mislead.

So let's go with:
1) Calvinism believes that the FAITH of all those who are born again (regenerated) will never cease. All will be saved, none lost. Technically, you are correct when you say Calvinism believes one must "continue to believe in order to be saved"; but this belief/faith comes from and is maintained by God and not the person....thus it can never be lost.

2) Calvinism believes that all those who are born again (regenerated) will show evidence (WORKS) of salvation. WORKS are a result of salvation and does not lead to salvation or maintain ones salvation. (It is a subtle, but important difference.)

P
 
Fastfredy0

Fastfredy0

Banned
#2,007
May 22, 2020
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#2,007
Pulie said:
Okay, I think it's unfair for God to choose some and leave others out. Salvation is not for the elite club.
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Re: Salvation
What would be fair would have all be sent to hell as they deserve. That would be justice.

Mercy would be to save even one undeserving soul.

Wisdom would be to have God chose who to save, if any, by His will alone. He is under no righteous compulsion to save any.

Your definition implies that fair would have God have:
All people people hear the gospel as faith cometh by hearing. All do not.
All people be born of Christian parents. They are not.
All people be born healthy. They are not.
All people suffer the same. They do not.
etc.

But I speak for you. Give your definition of fair and we will see if GOD IS FAIR by your definition. I assume you believe God to be FAIR in ALL things. If your definition of the DOCTRINE of the FAIRNESS of GOD does not include ALL THINGS ... tell us what things GOD is to be FAIR upon and why you leave out certain things. Scripture references would be appreciated.

*message not meant to be sent in a discourteous way*
 
J

Judges1318

Banned
#2,009
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
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#2,009
Fastfredy0 said:
Calvinist Arminian debate ... what is going on here is the same thing but lacks the definitions of Calvinist Arminian. But, in my opinion, fairly civil discourse. Obviously, ones bias has one prefer the combatant(s) that agree with oneself.

Aside: Most participants seem to be mature Christians and not likely to change their minds. Not sure if this discourse would benefit those that could be persuaded. *ponders to himself*

I wonder .. if you had 100 people brought up in a household of Arminian persuasion and another 100 people brought up in a household of Calvinistic persuasion ... then you sent them to a seminary of the opposite persuasion to "detox" them so to speak .... I wonder what the results would be. hmmm

oh well ...
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Did you know Jacob Arminius used to be a Calvinist? But he began to doubt it through his defense of it. IOW, he realized the error of it.
 
J

Judges1318

Banned
#2,010
Nov 16, 2019
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#2,010
Pulie said:
Okay, I think it's unfair for God to choose some and leave others out. Salvation is not for the elite club.
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It's way worse than that.
Calvinism says God, right from their formation, purposely crafted some people to be unbelievers, and others to be believers, in complete indifference to any input from what the person may want. And we're told to just shut up and not question God's justice in doing this. It's a horrible misunderstanding of Romans 9.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#2,011
Jul 3, 2015
61,091
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#2,011
Judges1318 said:
It's way worse than that.
Calvinism says God, right from their formation, purposely crafted some people to be unbelievers, and others to be believers, in complete indifference to any input from what the person wants. And we're told to just shut up and not question God's justice in doing this. It's a horrible misunderstanding of Romans 9.
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Yes, way worse, because Calvinism posits that God does not give some a choice at all (having specifically made them for destruction) and then will torture and torment those same ones forever after for failing to make a choice that was not given to them in the first place.
 
Fastfredy0

Fastfredy0

Banned
#2,012
May 22, 2020
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#2,012
Judges1318 said:
Did you know Jacob Arminius used to be a Calvinist? But he began to doubt it through his defense of it. IOW, he realized the error of it.
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I am not sure what your point is unless you are saying Jacob Arminius was infallible and therefore all his doctrine is without error.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#2,016
#2,016
Just_Jo said:
Oh,@jackrosie.
i believe in eternal security for the BELIEVER....continuing ,but not OSAS....it is a false security, for God WILL let you go.....if you chose another way than His!


Im sorry but the treads are quieter without that nonsense. Dont become like those you once had angst against because their form is attack,not love!
Please dont make me put you on ignore
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Eternal security = Once Saved Always Saved

Let’s not make things difficult
 
J

Judges1318

Banned
#2,017
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
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#2,017
Fastfredy0 said:
I am not sure what your point is unless you are saying Jacob Arminius was infallible and therefore all his doctrine is without error.
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No, I'm not saying that.
I'm making reference to this:
Fastfredy0 said:
I wonder .. if you had...100 people brought up in a household of Calvinistic persuasion ... then you sent them to a seminary of the opposite persuasion to "detox" them so to speak .... I wonder what the results would be. hmmm
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Answer: 100 new Arminianists. :LOL:

My point was in regard to your wondering. Arminius started out as a Calvinist, and later realized the errors in it. And you know the rest of the story.

I don't know the finer points of Arminianism, so I couldn't tell you if I agree with all of them.
 
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