"Not by works" - false!

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Pulie

Active member
May 26, 2020
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Re: Salvation
What would be fair would have all be sent to hell as they deserve. That would be justice.

Mercy would be to save even one undeserving soul.

Wisdom would be to have God chose who to save, if any, by His will alone. He is under no righteous compulsion to save any.

Your definition implies that fair would have God have:
All people people hear the gospel as faith cometh by hearing. All do not.
All people be born of Christian parents. They are not.
All people be born healthy. They are not.
All people suffer the same. They do not.
etc.

But I speak for you. Give your definition of fair and we will see if GOD IS FAIR by your definition. I assume you believe God to be FAIR in ALL things. If your definition of the DOCTRINE of the FAIRNESS of GOD does not include ALL THINGS ... tell us what things GOD is to be FAIR upon and why you leave out certain things. Scripture references would be appreciated.

*message not meant to be sent in a discourteous way*
I understand where your coming from and everything your saying is logical. The strength of the doctrine seems to lie in the word "fairness", but that does not mean God chose some and left others out to burn in hell. I am not familiar with the doctrine of the fairness of God but the God that I serve does not show favoritism.
There is no reasoning capacity that can ever convince me that God chooses some and leaves others to burn in hell. My perception of God is that of drawing all men to Himself.
John3:16"For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son, so that whoever believes in him may not perish but have eternal life".

1Tim4:10"And for this we labor and strive, that we have put our hope in the living God, who is Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe".

1John2:2"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world ".

Heb2:9"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone".
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
3,065
3,466
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I understand where your coming from and everything your saying is logical. The strength of the doctrine seems to lie in the word "fairness", but that does not mean God chose some and left others out to burn in hell. I am not familiar with the doctrine of the fairness of God but the God that I serve does not show favoritism.
There is no reasoning capacity that can ever convince me that God chooses some and leaves others to burn in hell. My perception of God is that of drawing all men to Himself.
John3:16"For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son, so that whoever believes in him may not perish but have eternal life".

1Tim4:10"And for this we labor and strive, that we have put our hope in the living God, who is Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe".

1John2:2"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world ".

Heb2:9"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone".
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

God is Holy , and will not lower His standards...
Unfortunately for many , they will never come to His Son Jesus , our Lord and Savior , they love their sin to much like we once did...
So does God chose them for hell , or do they chose hell for themselves , by denying Jesus ?
...xox...
 

Pulie

Active member
May 26, 2020
216
90
28
It's way worse than that.
Calvinism says God, right from their formation, purposely crafted some people to be unbelievers, and others to be believers, in complete indifference to any input from what the person may want. And we're told to just shut up and not question God's justice in doing this. It's a horrible misunderstanding of Romans 9.
Leadership is a product of providence

I think John Calvin was probably influenced by the Greek concept of leadership. That is, the gods chose a few chosen people to lead the unfortunate or to manage everything.
 
May 22, 2020
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God that I serve does not show favoritism.
You define favoritism by assuming God treats everyone the same (or at least I assume this definition). This is empirically shown to be incorrect as God choose Israel to be His favored people. He chooses some to be blind and other not. Some to hear the gospel, and others not. Thus, you have a contradiction.

There is no reasoning capacity that can ever convince me that God chooses some and leaves others to burn in hell. My perception of God is that of drawing all men to Himself.
If there is not reasoning to change your mind then a counter argument is pointless. I just state that one should let God tell us who He is and not us determine who He is. (Aside: If I thought God was 'fair' by my definition, then I would change a lot of things.)

John3:16"For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son, so that whoever believes in him may not perish but have eternal life".
Whoever does believe does get eternal life. God chooses some to believe. (Aside: there are ample verses saying man is not able to believe of his own power. There is no verse saying man can believe of his own free will meaning independent of God giving him faith. There are verses where God says you must believe and it is implied by that, that you can. But that is an implication that is shown to be false by many verses saying man isn't capable of believing on his own. Some counter this with a 'prevenient grace' (see gotquestions.com for definition), but biblical evidence for this is weak.

1John2:2"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world ".
The word WORLD is ambiguous. If WHOLE WORLD means everyone without exception then the verse is saying that everyone without exception has had their sin atoned. This is universalism which contradicts verses saying some go to hell.
John 14:17 the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive [and take to its heart] because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He (the Holy Spirit) remains with you continually and will be in you. .... If your definition of WORLD be consistent then this verse says no one can be saved.
Aside: Use a concordance and search for the word WORLD and insert your definition into the verse and you will see many conflicts and some impossibilities.
Aside2: This is heavy stuff to absorb ...takes a lot of study
Aside3: I could be wrong ... of course, I don't think I am .. ponder it
Aside4: Some try to keep their doctrine alive by saying Christ died for all our sins except the sin of unbelief. There is no explicit scripture to substantiate this claim.

Heb2:9"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone".
The word everyone and ALL have a similar explanation as the word WORLD. Use a concordance and search for the word ALL and insert your definition into the verse and you will see many conflicts and some impossibilities. Unfortunately, the word EVERYONE is not used sparingly so you can't do the same thing. But ALL and EVERYONE are synonyms.
Examples of ALL where it cannot mean everyone without exception:
  • Acts 26:4 Paul says, The Jews all know the way I have lived ever since I was a child, from the beginning of my life in my own country, and also in Jerusalem. Does he mean that every Jew without exception knew him? How about those who lived in the past and those who would live in the future?
  • Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. “All” without exception would validate universalism.

Here is an explanation of the word all with an example:
An error occurs when there is confusion about whether we refer to a term in a collective sense, or a distributive sense. A collective sense means all the items are considered together as a whole. In a distributive sense, all the items are considered separately, one at a time. The tricky thing is that the word "all" can be used either way. When "all" is used collectively, it means "all together". When "all" is used distributivity, it means "each and every one." The difference is really important and can often be distinguished only from context.
.. Example... Jill says, "All motorcycles have two wheels. " Greg responds, "That's ridiculous. A single motorcycle has two wheels. And there are of 200,000,000 motorcycles in the world. Therefore, all motorcycles would have over 400,000,000 wheels. Thus the word ALL is ambiguous and often construed by one's bias.

Thanks for the response. I can understand where you are coming from. Many agree with you.
Sorry for the lengthy response.
Supper time.
 

Pulie

Active member
May 26, 2020
216
90
28
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

God is Holy , and will not lower His standards...
Unfortunately for many , they will never come to His Son Jesus , our Lord and Savior , they love their sin to much like we once did...
So does God chose them for hell , or do they chose hell for themselves , by denying Jesus ?
...xox...
I am not comfortable with the idea that God sends some to heaven while leaving others to burn in hell. I would rather choose to be labeled a heretic by believing a person chooses hell when they deny Christ.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
34,985
12,549
113
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

God is Holy , and will not lower His standards...
Unfortunately for many , they will never come to His Son Jesus , our Lord and Savior , they love their sin to much like we once did...
So does God chose them for hell , or do they chose hell for themselves , by denying Jesus ?
...xox...

2 Peter 3:9 :)
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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I teach eternal security.
But you don't believe that because you define it outside the boundaries of what the Bible actually says.
HAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

No you don't.....you teach a self maintained security based upon what you do....

Get some honesty man....you make yourself look very bad and deceptive when YOU say things like you have said above....too be honest it is sickening that you deveive the way you do on this site!
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
8,468
4,231
113
HAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

No you don't.....you teach a self maintained security based upon what you do....

Get some honesty man....you make yourself look very bad and deceptive when YOU say things like you have said above....too be honest it is sickening that you deveive the way you do on this site!
he has been shown this contradiction many times, but just ignores it.
now, his new thing is " we don't understand what i am saying.."

but, we do.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,355
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he has been shown this contradiction many times, but just ignores it.
now, his new thing is " we don't understand what i am saying.."

but, we do.
Yep....100% for sure....he can spin it anyway he wants to spin it and when the dust settles, He peddles another Heinz 57 self maintained salvation based upon his self maintained faith......

My bible is clear....JESUS begins, completes and FINISHES the work of faith in us. It sickens me when men devalue Jesus and lift self......! God gives faith in measue and what God gives IS IRREVOCABLE!
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
HAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

No you don't.....you teach a self maintained security based upon what you do....

Get some honesty man....you make yourself look very bad and deceptive when YOU say things like you have said above....too be honest it is sickening that you deveive the way you do on this site!

Oh and here is something equally tragic and outrageous :rolleyes:


OSAS = the Strong Delusion of 2 Thess 2
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
2,487
508
113
OSAS = The Defence of the Sin Nature

As opposed to picking up your cross and dying daily.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
OSAS = The Defence of the Sin Nature

As opposed to picking up your cross and dying daily.
Your confidence lies completely in the flesh not Grace... sad

You will certainly be surprised on that day when you see what you refused.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
he has been shown this contradiction many times, but just ignores it.
now, his new thing is " we don't understand what i am saying.."

but, we do.
Yes I have comprehension problems too I have been told many times...lol.
 
May 22, 2020
403
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Topic: We are saved by works

Premise1: Work is defined by the dictionary as an "activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result."
Premise2: Man's faith comes from himself, not God
Conclusion: Believing Christ died and rose from the dead (faith) is a work for it is the "mental effort" of Christians done to "achieve the purpose" of salvation and obedience to God. Thus all those of as defined in premised 2 logically are of the opinion that "we are saved by works".

Observation: Many agree to premise1 and premise2 being factually correct, yet not the conclusion. Why would this not be a contradiction?
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
6,651
1,217
113
Topic: We are saved by works

Premise1: Work is defined by the dictionary as an "activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result."
Premise2: Man's faith comes from himself, not God
Conclusion: Believing Christ died and rose from the dead (faith) is a work for it is the "mental effort" of Christians done to "achieve the purpose" of salvation and obedience to God. Thus all those of as defined in premised 2 logically are of the opinion that "we are saved by works".

Observation: Many agree to premise1 and premise2 being factually correct, yet not the conclusion. Why would this not be a contradiction?
Romans 4:5 does not square with premise 1.
 
May 19, 2020
3,050
1,274
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Topic: We are saved by works

Premise1: Work is defined by the dictionary as an "activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result."
Premise2: Man's faith comes from himself, not God
Conclusion: Believing Christ died and rose from the dead (faith) is a work for it is the "mental effort" of Christians done to "achieve the purpose" of salvation and obedience to God. Thus all those of as defined in premised 2 logically are of the opinion that "we are saved by works".

Observation: Many agree to premise1 and premise2 being factually correct, yet not the conclusion. Why would this not be a contradiction?


A believer does absolutely no work what so ever......it is all the work of the Holy Spirit.


Faith comes from God....the only way I came to know that Jesus died for my sins.....was when God testified that to my spirit.....it must come from the Spirit of God........
If he doesn’t place that in a believers “HEART”....then you aren’t born again....

All self effort not good.......

Example I have great difficulty in reading the word..(a friend is helping me now) I have concentration problems..I pray the Lord sets me free from that.

The Lord has taught me through his Spirit.....what I know.....it is him teaching me.......and I love to listen.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
34,985
12,549
113
Topic: We are saved by works

Premise1: Work is defined by the dictionary as an "activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result."
Premise2: Man's faith comes from himself, not God
Conclusion: Believing Christ died and rose from the dead (faith) is a work for it is the "mental effort" of Christians done to "achieve the purpose" of salvation and obedience to God. Thus all those of as defined in premised 2 logically are of the opinion that "we are saved by works".

Observation: Many agree to premise1 and premise2 being factually correct, yet not the conclusion. Why would this not be a contradiction?
Man's faith is a gift from God, a gift which we are to add to.


2 Peter 1:5-8