"Not by works" - false!

Been here done this have no desire to go there again

Will have to disagree and just say I am disappointed. Because in my view you belittle Gods love

It is very rare that a "Calvinist" will see the flaws in their dogma.

God only loves only some unto salvation... a capricious, morally ambiguous God. Not the God of the Bible.

What we have is the author, John Calvin of this doctrine, infusing his personality into how he perceived God, while an intelligent well learned man he could not escape his own biases and predispositions.

Banking more red x's I am sure.

I believe as once I was in darkness....and I knew that after becoming born again.....God still loved me as a sinner and he drew me to him......he still had his hand on me even as a sinner.

You don’t know what darkness is until you become born again....it’s sin!!

We both believe the other belittles God's love. But, I believe you love God greatly, which is more important.

All born agains Love God we are his children.

@Fastfredy0

I will always defend the nature of God so you keep those red x's coming, I was once deceived by some of the tenets of Calvinism... glory days when that yoke was lifted.

Remember this .....The God you serve is the God you REFLECT..... I learned that big time I pray you will see this soon.

Thank you

And the reason they are getting conformed at all, is because they were adopted. It's like grafting a tree. So those who have been grafted naturally get conformed as a consequence of being grafted and the identity of the tree being changed by that fruitful branch. The trees who have accepted the graft will produce fruit in time, the tree was permanently changed and that's that. You have been adopted when you believed, God is not maybe adopting you but maybe not after all, and going back and forth all your life.

I didn't say it did.

The outcome of salvation is what is predestined.
The elect are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, not predestined to be the elect:

"...who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters..." - Romans 8:28-29

"4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship c through Jesus Christ..." - Ephesians 1:4-5

"10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." - Ephesians 2:10

.

Who gives such hearts to people?

even He Who creates them.

Here's where Paul talks about grafted in branches being broken off:

"19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you (a grafted in branch) either." - Romans 11:19-21

That's right.
You, personally, can not be grafted back in after you get cut out.
God does not allow that.
That subjects Christ to open shame.

This is love: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 1 John 4:10

Romans 5-8

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Amen.
The love of God right there ... let us never be persuaded otherwise!!

Those who are called. Individuals.
Those who are chosen. Individuals.
Those who are His handiwork. Individuals.

I think you are disturbed by the idea that these things could be in God's hands instead of your own, that they are His prerogatives not ours, so you keep trying to make these passages say something other than what they very plainly say. In every single one the things being said to be predestined are people.

I presume your objection is that of culpability - the same objection that Paul anticipates in Romans 9. "how cane He still judge us, since no one can resist His will?"
Same answer: who are you, oh man, to answer back to God?
I see no logical reason for Paul to anticipate this objection unless it naturally arises from what he is teaching. If Paul is teaching that only the method of salvation is predetermined, that objection has no cause to ever be made. But if Paul is truly saying that God elects people according to His own will apart from any work, desire or effort of the individual, before they have even been born, then the objection men raise is clear and obvious, and happens to be exactly the objection Paul anticipates and addresses.

Before I am accused of such, no, I am certainly not arguing against culpability for sin. God is perfectly just to condemn me if He has not chosen me to redeem me.

Good, I was hoping to take you here.
I think the Parable of the Sower gets right to the question of whether God purposely creates some soil with the potential to retain and bring to fruition the word of God, and purposely creates some without that potential.

Amen. Perhaps I will design a panel with that verse

Fred said we have never defined love and yet surely those verses have been given before. Very likely multiple times.

Yeah the branches that are not receptive and therefore not suitable to accept fruit graft are broken off, that would make sense. Jesus is the real fruit graft. Only branches that were receptive for Jesus fruit graft will be left on the tree. But once Jesus graft is accepted, that's it my friend, because you are not the same branch and you will now produce much fruit and this fruit is not arrogance or exalting yourself over other branches...

Have you read the Old Testament???

God preferred Israel over Egypt. God preferred Israel over Canaan.

Is this morally ambiguous? No, of course not. Even ignoring the FACT that it is God who defines what is moral and what is not. There is a reason why God prefers some groups of people over others. There is a reason why God divides some people from others. It is for His Glory and to His Glory.

Its facts. Not wishes. Not hopes. All we have left is to be grateful. And the hardened side just has their animosity and hate.


How is God loving those who He saves and not loving those who He does not save any different than separating Israel from Egypt in the OT?