Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Sounds like an argument straight out of the Roman Catholic church. I commonly hear three different interpretations for Hebrews 6:4-6 (hypothetical view, lost salvation view, never truly saved view) but am not convinced that it "unequivocally" teaches a really "saved" person truly "lost their salvation." According to the hypothetical interpretation, the key word in the passage is IF. According to this view, the writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement, "IF a Christian were to fall away." The point being made is that it would be impossible if a Christian fell away to renew them again because Christ died once for sin and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all. Based on that view, the passage would present an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can permanently fall away) and follows it to its senseless conclusion that they would crucify again for themselves the Son of God.
In regards to the never truly saved view, the words, once enlightened - which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.
In regards to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive.
Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God, yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these things may be genuine Christians, yet this alone is not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of conversion (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification, adoption etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet those who draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth do not believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:39)
These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responding to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead sinners to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit." Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)
In regards to tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." We do not merely taste, but drink into one Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:13)
In regards to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (moral self-reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for the argument of a loss of salvation.
In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see in scripture where good fruit is the evidence of spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that those who fell away in Hebrews 6 were not genuine believers.
*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.
It's generally stated by those who believe that salvation can be lost that it can be regained again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation. I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was truly saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God truly knows the heart of individuals. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and you can't always tell them apart at first.
In regards to the never truly saved view, the words, once enlightened - which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.
In regards to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive.
Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God, yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these things may be genuine Christians, yet this alone is not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of conversion (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification, adoption etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet those who draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth do not believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:39)
These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responding to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead sinners to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit." Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)
In regards to tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." We do not merely taste, but drink into one Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:13)
In regards to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (moral self-reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for the argument of a loss of salvation.
In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see in scripture where good fruit is the evidence of spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that those who fell away in Hebrews 6 were not genuine believers.
*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.
It's generally stated by those who believe that salvation can be lost that it can be regained again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation. I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was truly saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God truly knows the heart of individuals. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and you can't always tell them apart at first.
-
2
- Show all
Why wouldn't lean on the commentators too much, and certainly not the reformers. This is a Hebrew speaking to an audience of other Hebrews. Some of these Hebrews are evidently at risk of apostasy. Whatever the circumstances I don't believe that there is enough here to create doctrine.
However, With these Scriptures we can definitely create doctrine:
John 10
10:27: My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
10:28: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
10:29: My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
"No man" includes ourselves.
So my questions to you:
Is an apostate saved from eternity past? Was Judas apostate? What does the Scripture say of Judas? Does it say that Judas lost his salvation or does it say that he never possessed it?
As for losing ones salvation I don't believe that the will of man can overpower Gods election.
However, With these Scriptures we can definitely create doctrine:
John 10
10:27: My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
10:28: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
10:29: My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
"No man" includes ourselves.
So my questions to you:
Is an apostate saved from eternity past? Was Judas apostate? What does the Scripture say of Judas? Does it say that Judas lost his salvation or does it say that he never possessed it?
As for losing ones salvation I don't believe that the will of man can overpower Gods election.
-
2
-
1
- Show all
Here it is....no one listens to your drivel.
God would never speak to you like that DorothyMae...he listens to you...because he knows you are searching...he will never give up on you....keep searching,he knows your heart.
I would post more on dcontroversal words....but I am praying for him very deeply at the moment....because I believe he is starting to lose the plot....his posts have got worse.
His scripture is spot on.
But his attitude stinks.
It’s a shame,it really is..because he has great biblical knowledge.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
E
Here @dcontroversal uses the word "listening" that is entirely different than reading.
To listen means to give attention to what one is reading, and there are levels of attention, there is more careful consideration.
One can read without paying much attention at all.
So no you are wrong, different words and different meaning.
Both you and Mrs. @DorothyMae should apologize for your false accusation.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
Sorry,you can wrap it up in your words as much as you like...I completely disagree..he even said on a post,that he would like to say what he really thinks....but couldn’t because he would be banned.
As I say I love reading scripture he posts.....unfortunately that’s it.....his attitude stinks and so does your’s.
The same as you said I lack scripture knowledge..you are right,but at least I can admit to it.
The reason I am saying this is.....because my attitude was like you 2....only I woke up.or maybe I should say God woke me up...I pray he does the same for you.
Great scripture posted....presentation of it to others.....terrible.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
E
You are just looking to find fault with @dcontroversal because he does not support you in your support of Mrs. Dorothy.
What I stated is completely accurate.
He used the word "listening"... meaning paying attention, taking in, absorbing. The context makes it clear.
You just want to side with you friend @DorothyMae ... she is actually not a nice person by any means she is a teacher of false doctrine.
What I stated is completely accurate.
He used the word "listening"... meaning paying attention, taking in, absorbing. The context makes it clear.
You just want to side with you friend @DorothyMae ... she is actually not a nice person by any means she is a teacher of false doctrine.
-
2
- Show all
I am not siding with DorothyMae....she is confused and searching...only you are blind to that....
And again what you stated about dcontroversal....I completely disagree with.
Did you not see.what he said about he can’t speak what he wants to say..because he will be banned.
He has great scripture knowledge the way he deals with those who are confused ,as I was ....his presentation to others....is a disgrace..........DorothyMae is searching and God will never give up on her..
Yes,..she can be rude also,like we all have been....but I have never seen her address others as he does.
You can all wrap it up as you like..but I will not cover up for that type of behaviour.
He has been going at this thread for 3 yrs and you can see his pattern..it has slowly got worse....I believe it has affected his mind...I really do.
-
1
- Show all
E
She stated she knows God... she is not searching.
Words are on a page are not behaviour, you do not know his behaviour so you make false assumptions once again and also make yourself a judge over him.
... and I think @dcontroversal has explained in multiple posts how we are to deal with false teachers with scripture.
My advice take it........ his teachings are sound
... I appreciate your eagerness to learn ... I am thankful you have settled in your mind that salvation is secure over the past few weeks... that is indeed a good thing.
God reveals His Truth to those who take a stand where He takes a stand.
If you stay the course you have will have exciting times ahead as He reveals himself to you.
-
1
- Show all
I am not judging him at all...i am trying to show him that his behaviour is unacceptable just like you showed me my lack of scripture...maybe look at your heart while your at it...seriously I mean that.......words on a page are behaviour..as I have said..wrap it up as much as you like in your words.
You aren’t helping him either..you are just firing him up more.
I take his scripture but I won’t tolerate his behaviour.
Don’t try and manipulate me with your thinking,because it won’t work.
I have also stayed the course and I have more than exciting times ahead....words can’t express what I have coming from God....I have waited 28 yrs for my vision to come to pass.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
Salvation is by grace through faith alone. WORKS are summed up in Acts 26: 20, "..."repent and DO WORKS MEET (worthy) OF REPENTANCE. James is just saying the same thing, that after salvation, a changed life is evident by the expected good behaviour of the convert. If a person therefore is not living right by a changed life, then that "faith" one professes may be suspect, even dead. In other words, it is simply faith, (salvation), THAT works.
E
Words on page can be deceptive that is my point around behaviour.
I am sorry I do not get it at all.
You prefer to coddle/defend a person who obviously has an agenda be against someone defends the Gospel.
It does not compute for me.
Thank you for judging my heart as well... you do not know me at all.
I am sorry I do not get it at all.
You prefer to coddle/defend a person who obviously has an agenda be against someone defends the Gospel.
It does not compute for me.
Thank you for judging my heart as well... you do not know me at all.
-
2
- Show all
I see what you post..that’s enough for me...seriously take a look at your silly behaviour on here..your like a child at times...
I am not coddling anyone...if she doesn’t believe that only born again go to heaven...then I have nothing more to say to her.
That is God’s truth.......she doesn’t understand osas.....because there is no scripture that says once saved always saved..we understand it..but she doesn’t.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
