"Antichrist": Broad Deception By Narrow Definition

I think it's safe to assume your conclusion is derived from the popular idea that "out of one of them came forth a little horn" means "out of one of "the four horns" came forth a little horn" and is interpreted as, "Out of one of the four divisions of Greece - namely the Seleucid kingdom - came forth the little horn Antiochus Epiphanes IV".

The prophecy actually refers to "out of one of "the four winds" - or "directions of the compass" - came forth a little horn which attacked the nations laterally as Pagan Rome until it begins attacking vertically toward heaven as Papal Rome where it "cast the truth to the ground" as it robbed Christ of His throne, His names, His titles, His prerogatives, His High Priestly ministry, and He as the only arbiter of mercy, salvation, forgiveness, and blessing of His church...as well as mankind's judge, jury, and executioner of the same. It's what the name "antichrist" means - to "take the place of Christ".

The Papacy fulfilled everything the chapters of Daniel and Revelation predicted, and if you can point to one of them which they did not fulfill, I ask that you please do

Like most today, you spin Scripture to support your belief and not for what it says.
The description given for the little horn does not fit Antiochus Epiphanes.

Hey Scribe,

I totally agree that we should be looking for the coming of our Messiah who is the King of Kings, but why do you think the Prophets, Yeshua/Jesus, and the Apostles warn us? Do we just ignore the warnings?

These warnings include:

-Deception
-Persecution
-Tribulation and Great Tribulation
-Antichrist
-Even Death

So how is that not preparing us to undergo those things for our Faith in Him?

Escapism, or thinking that we will escape these things to come is not scriptural. It's wishful thinking, and this wishful thinking is not preparing us to endure till the end.

Jesus said,
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (Matthew 24:13)

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (Mark 13:13)

There's plenty more scriptures speaking of endurance. I'll share if necessary.

Not sure what you're talking about me spinning anything, but let's not dismiss the fact that the most popular interpretation IS Antiochus Epiphanes, because it is, albeit a wrong idea, and on that we agree. Antiochus was a chump, and in now way "exceeding great" to the previous kingdoms of Alexander, Cyrus, or Nebuchadnezzer.

I agree. I do not see how the pre-trib view negates any of that. Christians should expect the world to hate them and to want to kill them and that is not going to change. There is no promise of escape from persecution or death by governments and haters in the pre trib view. We are promised to be kept from His wrath in the Day of the Lord which is what most of Revelation is about. So even the Post trib view believes that Christians will some how be protected from the judgments that are poured out on the earth. If anyone thinks that the pre-trib view teaches that Christians will escape persecution and death from martyrdom they do not understand the eschatology of pre-tribulation rapture. It is escape from the wrath of the Lamb that is going to cause them to say to the rocks "fall on us and hide us from the wrath of the Lamb"
But this has been said so often in these posts that I am not sure why people keep saying that the pre-trib view is escapism. Unless they have an issue with escaping judgment of God.

Most popular among whom? You must reading those Jesuit books again. Jesus mentioned the prophecy long after Antiochus Epiphanes so how could anyone interpret it as him?

I agree that we will not go through the Wrath of God as believers and followers of Yeshua. But... it's an assumption to think that the Great Tribulation and the coming antichrist is apart of that Wrath. Especially when Yeshua warned His disciples in Matthew 24 saying that we will go through that. The Apostles reverberated the same message throughout their Epistles. Speaking to Jewish and Gentile believers.

After 6 seals are broken, then that's when the Day of the Wrath of the Lamb is mentioned. After the Great Tribulation and antichrist. That's why it's dangerous to assume that we won't go through the Great Tribulation and deception of the Antichrist, which I believe we should be aware of. The antichrist is going to be a perfect counterfeit of our true Messiah. Even to deceive the elect... Hopefully that makes sense.

Brother, I do a lot of research Most students of prophecy apply Daniel 8's Little Horn to AE IV, saying that he "took away the daily sacrifice" by suspending the Jewish sacrificial system for a period, as well as saying that he was "exceeding great" above Alexander, Cyrus, and Nebuchadnizzle fanizzle by the sacrifice of a pig on the Jewish alter. I mean, how many other applications of the Little Horn even come close to this i popularity?

Most of Revelation is NOT about the 'Wrath of God'.

Part I

You are correct! It says "that day" will not come, which must refer back to the time period mentioned in verse 2 which is 'the Day of the Lord."

What most people don't catch is where in Thess.2:1, Paul mentions "the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to Him and his change in verse 3 referring to 'the Day of the Lord."

The appearing of our Lord and our being gathered together to Him is the blessed hope for all who are watching and anticipating the Lord's return. The Day of the Lord on the other hand, is a day of darkness, of wrath and fierce anger. This is the time period which follows after the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to Him. To be clear, below is what the scripture is not saying:

"Let no one deceive you in any way, for the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to Him, will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. " What it is saying is:

"Let no one deceive you in any way, for the day of the Lord (that day) will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed."

There were those in Thessalonica who were teaching that 'the Day of the Lord' had already begun, i.e. the time of God's wrath. So, the Thessalonians concern was, that if the Day of the Lord had already come, then why weren't they caught up to meet the Lord in the air as Paul had taught them and which is why Paul starts of with "concerning the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to Him."

The appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to Him and the Day of the Lord, are two separate but closely linked events. The one is the blessed hope, which is the gathering of the church. And the other is the time period in which God's wrath will be poured out, which is the Day of the Lord, also referred to in Rev.3:10 as 'the hour of trial,' which Jesus said He would keep us out of.

Why do you think that the Day of the Lord comes before the seven year period, when it comprises the seven year period. Paul switches from the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to Him, to referring to the Day of the Lord, which is what Paul says will not come until the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed. Since the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath and the Day of the Lord represents that time of wrath, then the church cannot enter into that time period. The appearing of our Lord to gather His church will take place first, which is then followed by the Day of the Lord. This time period is what Jesus warns believers about in Luke 21:34-36

“Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. 35For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

"That day" that Jesus is referring to, is the Day of the Lord, i.e. the time of God's wrath. In the scripture above, Jesus is warning believers to not be found living according to the sinful nature, because when He comes to gather His church, they will not be gathered and the Day of the Lord will close on them like a trap, i.e. they will be caught in the time of God's wrath.

(Continued)

Part II

"Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus."

Those being spoken of in Rev.12:17 are the great tribulation saints, which because of their faith, are considered the spiritual children of Abraham. His going off to wage war against the rest of her offspring is the same group mentioned in Rev.13:5-7 of whom the beast is given authority to wage war against and to conquer for 42 months.

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"The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months. 6And the beast opened his mouth to speak blasphemies against God and to slander His name and His tabernacle—those who dwell in heaven.

7Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them, and he was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.
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It makes perfect sense when you understand that this group are those who will not have been believers prior to the church being gathered. These are those who after the church has been gathered, will realize that what believers had been telling them about the Lord coming to gather His church and the coming wrath of God which follows, was the truth. From that point on many will become believers and will keep the testimony of Jesus and the word of God and will not worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark. The will most likely flock to the book of Revelation realizing what has happened and will prepare themselves for what they know is coming and what they must go through. This is why the Lord and the apostles are continually warning believers to be watching and ready for the Lord's appearing. For if they go back into the world living according to the sinful nature, then the Day of the Lord will close on them like a trap, being caught in the time of God's wrath.

The wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, will affect everyone on the whole earth. Therefore, anyone who is here during that time will be exposed to those plagues of wrath simply by being on the earth. According to scripture, the unbelieving nation of Israel, the great tribulation saints and the 144,000 will be here during the Day of the Lord, although the Male Child which is a collective name representing the 144,000, will be caught up to God and His throne in the middle of the seven years. Israel which is represented by the woman of Rev.12:6, 14 will be cared for out in the wilderness by God for 1260 days, which is that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. In contrast, many of the great tribulation saints which are Gentiles, will be killed at the hands of the beasts authority, but not all. Some will make through the time of God's tribulation alive and will be allowed to enter into the millennial kingdom to repopulate the earth along with the remnant of Israel. These are those whom the angels will be gathering as described in Matt.24:31 when they go throughout the four corners of the earth. They are the sheep on His right to whom Jesus will say, "Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world."

(Continued)

Part III

As I have posted many times the "has come" in the 'aorist indicative active' tense which means that God's wrath in it's entirety is what is in view in the announcement and not just what follows. This is demonstrated in Rev.11:18 which also speaks of God's wrath in its entirety. You can't have two starting points of wrath. The problem is that when people read "the great day of their wrath has come" they interpret it as meaning that God's wrath begins after the announcement, which is false. By this interpretation, it allows them to put the church on the earth during the first six seals, which again is false. The announcement of wrath also includes the seals and their fatalities that will have previously taken place, which would equal approximately 2 billion people killed. We also have to take note of who is opening the seals and is thereby responsible for all of those fatalities, which is the Lamb/Jesus. If I was to paraphrase, it would go something like the following:

"For the great day of Their wrath has come which is the reason for the previous fatalities, as well as the fatalities from the wrath that is yet to come and who is able to withstand it?”

When reading Revelation, it is important to pay attention to all of the details. Below is the scripture"

"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed."

According to the scripture above, the seven bowl judgments as a unit, are the last plagues and complete God's wrath. Consequently, if the seven bowls are said to be last, then it would infer that other wrath would have to come first or before them. If I say that "I was last in line to buy my concert tickets," it would mean that other people were in front of me, because I was last. It is the same meaning here. If the bowls are the last of God's wrath, then other wrath would have had to come before them, which would be the seals and trumpet judgments.

Not to brag or anything, but as soon as I read your post, the Spirit has already brought the scriptures to mind, as well as the answers. I do not have anything saved where I just copy and paste. Most of them I respond to are off the top of my head. I do however have to go to the scripture for chapter and verse, because I don't know all of their locations off the top of my head.

All of these answers that I have been giving you, come from over 45 years of study in the word of God. The Lord first called me at age 14 and I was immediately drawn to end-time events and have been studying it ever since. The answers to the pre-trib gathering, come from utilizing all of the scriptures relating to that event and not just some. This is why I am always teaching that the church cannot and will not go through God's wrath and that because Jesus already satisfied it. Everything that God does is a legal process, that is a legal precedent. Therefore, since God's wrath has already been satisfied by Christ, then the wrath of God no longer rests upon the believer, which is why we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. If someone pays off your mortgage in full and the bank tells you that your mortgage has been paid, would you continue to send in your mortgage payments? And will the bank who had the lien on your house continue to demand payments from you? Of course not! It is the same here. Jesus satisfied that legal precedent of God's wrath because of our sins, by taking God's wrath upon himself. Wrath fulfilled! Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon those who are in Christ. Through faith in Christ, we have been credited with His righteousness and reconciled to God. If believers were to go through God's wrath the same as the wicked, then it would mean that the wrath that Jesus suffered on our behalf would have been in vain.

Matthew 24:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Jesus is talking about this as future from the day he is talking. Antiochus was before Jesus was born. So he was not the fulfilment even if it they thought he was, Jesus lets us know it had not happened yet. What kind of wrangling of scripture do they go through to tell you Jesus was mistaken?

I disagree. In 2 Thess. 2:1-3 it clearly talks about the Day of the Lord and that's it. The Day of the Lord consists of Him appearing, us being gathered up, and then the Wrath of God has come. That's the context.

I'd give you Matt. 24:30-31, talking about the elect being taken up after the Great Tribulation and antichrist. Yet, you don't believe it's talking to the Body of Believers. Even though Jesus wasn't talking to unbelieving Israel, but His believing disciples in private about the End of the Age (verse 3)... Even Paul in His Epistles to the Gentile believers speaks about the elect.

Question: How will the "Tribulation Saints" go through the Wrath of God, if Jesus died on the cross and already took that upon Himself?

How did the Israelites go through the plagues of Egypt? Not by leaving Egypt. They didn't leave Egypt until AFTER the plagues were done.

If you do not understand what the parenthetical statement is saying, you will not properly interpret what the whole verse is saying.

The assumptions you are making in your interpretation attempt are very common - and, very much in error.

The Jews understood very well what Matthew and Mark wrote in their accounts of the Olivet Discourse.

Most who study it today do not.

When I finally understood the meaning of the parenthetical statement(s), a-whole-lotta-things "just fell into place" - it was amazing!

There is mention of this but it seems to be only for literal Jews.

1And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

True, but what point are you trying to make?

I started a thread that is dedicated to this topic:

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/whoso-readeth-let-him-understand.192848/

Why do you keep bringing up the AoD? Our point of contention is NOT the AoD, but the Little Horn of chapter 8. You disputed my claim that Antiochus was the most popular figure to which Daniel's chapter 8 Little Horn is applied.

Just to be clear, I DO NOT AGREE WITH THAT INTERPRETATION - the Little Horn is the Roman Empire, both in its Pagan phase (when it attacks laterally) and then its Papal phase (when it attacks Heaven).

Please provide reasons for why you disagree that the Little Horn is most popularly applied to Antiochus, for I assure you that is the case.