The 144,000,The Remnant Church In The Wilderness, Fed (Manna) From Heaven During The Tribulation

You are correct about the word "Gentiles" in Roman's 11. My mistake. I don't know what made me write that. My bad. I request precision from others, so I admit to a serious fault. Suitably judged (by myself), I rise once more to the argument at hand.

In verse 11 you have added your words to scripture. I will post the context of verse 11 and we will see who "they" are according to the grammar. Romans 11:7-13;

7 "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them (Israel) the spirit of slumber, eyes that they (Israel) should not see, and ears that they (Israel) should not hear unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their (Israel's) table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them (Israel):
10 Let their (Israel's) eyes be darkened, that they (Israel) may not see, and bow down their (Israel's) back alway.
11 I say then, Have they (Israel) stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their (Israel's) fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them (Israel) to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them (Israel) be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them (Israel) the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their (Israel's) fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office
...
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

I think that I do not have to say much. "THEY" of verse 11 are not "the Gentiles with Ephraim among them". It is ISRAEL according to the grammar. And by using the word "HE" or "IT" seeketh in verse 7 the Holy Spirit shows us that Israel is all who came from Jacob, not the ten northern Tribes. Then, not only does the grammar imply "Israel" for "THEY" and "THEIR", but Israel is CONTRASTED with the Gentiles. That is, Ephraim is always included in ISRAEL and is in CONTRAST to the Gentiles. Your addition of Ephraim is groundless.

Next, the word "fulness" in verse 12 is the same word as in verse 25. Thus, what ever meaning you give the one, you must give to the other. But even this does not matter because ONE is for Israel, which contains the Tribe of Ephraim, and the OTHER is the GENTILES, who are CONTRASTED. And your insertion of Genesis 48:19 helps nothing. It is written in Hebrew and the word "fulness" in the Hebrew means "to make full", "make replete" or "to fill up as full as the nations are in number". I quote the Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges Comments form Biblehub;

a multitude] Lit. fulness, as Isaiah 31:4, “a multitude (lit. fulness) of shepherds.” To become “the fulness of the nations” is to be as full of population as all the nations of the world; a strong hyperbole.

Click to expand...

I dare say that your argument by additions to God's Word is groundless. Romans 11 CONTRASTS ALL ISRAEL with the Gentiles. Ephraim is not singled out.

Your answer lies in: Where was Ephraim at the time Paul wrote Romans 11? Was Ephraim located in, or associated with Israel among their brother Judah among the Jews? Or was Ephraim located and associated with all tribes from around the world? Was Ephraim scattered among and associated with the Gentiles? Are Ephraim even knowing to this day that they are in fact part of Israel or associated with Israel?

I'm not sure what you are getting at, but from what you say, I will refer you to what God said - not me. Revelation 13:7;

"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

It seems pretty clear to me that the Beast has ultimate power in the earth, even over Christians. But, as we know from Daniel 4:17-25, God retains overall sovereignty in the universe. Included in this is His CHOICE of power and authority. So we read in verses 17 and 25.

17 "This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.
....
25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will."

But brother, I have a question for you. How come the saints on earth are "overcome" by the Beast? It does not say the Beast "killed" the saints. After all, it was a "war".

But Romans 11 is not about what we think or associate Ephraim with. It is how God views His Promise to Abraham. The reason that Paul takes three Chapters on Israel is that God's honor is at stake. In the first seven Chapters of Romans, Paul builds a case that every man is concluded under sin and judgment - Israelite and Gentile alike. But more guilt lies on the Israelite because (i) to him was given the Covenants, the Oracles and the Law of God, (ii) God dwelt in their midst and preserved them, and (iii) they are the only nation to have swapped their God for the Gentile gods.

Chapter 8 shows the solution to all men, especially those under Law, but everybody knows that Israel did not take this way. So besides the three terrible indictments above, a fourth is added. "Israel flaunted God's salvation". The natural question then of every reader is; "What chance have Israel got now???" They have violated and offended God in every way. They are already under chastisement. What can save them??? And this very question is an arrow at God. Did not God PROMISE Israel their Land, blessings and that they would be the leading Nation among Nations??? Is God good for His PROMISES, or not??? This presents a huge dilemma for men. God has TWO COVENANTS with Israel and ONE of them PROMISES Israel their Land "for an everlasting possession", and the OTHER Covenant chases them out of the Land among the heathen (Lev.26 & Deut.28).

So Paul, under inspiration, builds a case for BLIND and UNBELIEVING ISRAEL! It is not a case of Israel turning to Jesus. This they will NOT do until He bursts out of the clouds over Olivet. It is a case of a NATIONAL RESTORATION ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT OF PROMISE. And in that Covenant the CONDITION that Israel must fulfill is CIRCUMCISION - not faith in Jesus. What is urgently needed is then SOMEHOW TO LEGALLY FORGIVE ISRAEL'S SINS!!! And THAT is done LEGALLY BY GOD because Jesus was the LAMB of God who took away BOTH sin (Jn.1:29) and sins (1st Jn.2:2) OF THE WORLD. Thus, God does not violate His righteousness when He has mercy on who He will. He is allowed to forgive Israel based on the all-encompassing death of Jesus. And once Israel is back in their Land, the problem with the Second Covenant is solved by making a New Covenant of Law with them under better conditions.

So in these THREE Chapter of Romans, salvation like a Christian is saved is looked into in Chapter 10, but Israel don't take this way. They do not BELIEVE. BUT God has another option. "Salvation" as a NATION based on the Lamb and the promises of the prophets! And these prophets did not know about the salvation that we Christians have. ALL Old Testament prophets more or less said what Zacharias said in Luke Chapter 1 - a National restoration to their Land in peace and favor with God to serve Emanuel who will again live in their midst.

Ephraim is not singled out. He belongs to "ALL Israel".

Start here and work your way back, and ask yourself: Why would God say, in this way all Israel would be saved, after two groups of people are discussed, ie. Israel who retained their identity, and Gentiles who lost their Ephraim identity?


Romans 11 (ESV)

26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; 27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."


Also note there are thousands of Judah coming to Christ Yeshua as we speak, not as you falsely stated only when Christ Yeshua returns at Olivet - when that happens it is too late for anyone of Israel who had not yet been granted the grace of salvation by God.

Judah accepting Christ Yeshua: OneForIsrael: Thousands of Judahites among the Jews testimonies of accepting Christ Yeshua

Rabbi Avraham Greenbaum


Revelation 7 (ESV)

2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, 3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." 4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: 5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed, 12,000 from the tribe of Reuben, 12,000 from the tribe of Gad, 6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher, 12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali, 12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh, 7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon, 12,000 from the tribe of Levi, 12,000 from the tribe of Issachar, 8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun, 12,000 from the tribe of Joseph, 12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed. 9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" 13 Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, "Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?" 14 I said to him, "Sir, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 "Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat. 17 For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

I got lost when you inserted the phrase, "Gentiles lost their Ephraim identity". Are you still discussing Romans 11? Or have you moved to somewhere else in scripture? I've never come accross this concept anywhere in the Bible. Added to this you did not rebut one of my statements - which lets them stand.

As to lots of Jews turning to Christ, I have no such proof. My sources say that proselyting in Israel is illegal, and there is no great movement of Jews towards faith in Christ elsewhere. The Bible says that they are, "blind", "hardened" and "concluded by God in UNBELIEF" until the Gentiles have completed their years as rulers of this earth. Paul washed his hands of them 1,950 years ago. Who shall I believe?

But this discussion is moot in any case. If all Jews are counted and we come to 15 million. That is "ALL" Israel. If 1 million convert to Christ, there would be 14 million Israelites because as 2nd Corinthians 5:17 says, the 1 million lose their ethnicity and are a New Creature. So the 14 million would still be ALL Israel. Taking this argument to its logical end, whatever the sum of Israelites is when Christ bursts through the clouds, they will constitute "ALL Israel".

Why do you state that you are a Swiss, if according to you, you've lost your Swiss ethnicity when you became a Christian? You do not make sense. Have you never came across Ephraim the northern kingdom tribes, that has been lost for 2730 years since their Assyrian captivity, in the Bible? Then you need to start reading. Begin with the book Ezekiel, read it from beginning to end. Then 1st and 2nd Chronicles and 1st and 2nd Kings. But if you have been limited to Darbyism and "dispensationalism", and restrict yourself to the New Testament books of the Bible, believing that restored Israel and the Body of Christ are separate entities, then you would remain blinded.

Click on this link and find the video proof you sought, of the thousands of Judahite Israelites among the Jews, turning to Christ Yeshua as we speak: http://bit.ly/OneForIsrael

Simple

The saints on earth in Revelation 13:7 are the (Two Witnesses) seen in Revelation 11:7 below.

When the (Two Witnesses) finish their testimony after 1260 days,they will be overcome and killed, Gods divine plan.

The saints seen in Revelation 13:7 dosent represent the Church on earth as you suggest in error, it's the (Two Witnesses)

Revelation 13:7KJV
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 11:7KJV
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

I Agree, Big Smiles!

The books of 1st and 2nd Samuel may also be of assistance, as well as all the books of the prophets.

The nation Israel has been blinded and now an enemy with God yes.

If individual Jews within that nation are willing to believe in the gospel of grace given to Paul, they are included in the body of Christ, where there is neither Jew Nor gentile.

But you are right, during the tribulation or Jacob trouble, God will be dealing with the nation Israel once again.

The nation Israel <> Restoration of the Kingdom of Israel, with grafted-in believing Gentiles, under the root, our King Christ Yeshua
The Body of Christ = Restoration of the Kingdom of Israel, with grafted-in believing Gentiles, under the root, our King Christ Yeshua

source: Romans 11

As I said in the other thread, which you took offense for some strange reason, I believed the Body of Christ has a separate destiny from the nation Israel.

X: The nation Israel <> Restoration of the Kingdom of Israel, with grafted-in believing Gentiles, under the root, our King Christ Yeshua
Y: The Body of Christ = Restoration of the Kingdom of Israel, with grafted-in believing Gentiles, under the root, our King Christ Yeshua

source: Romans 11

Your statement to which I agree, but you declared we disagree: "I believed the Body of Christ has a separate destiny from the nation Israel."

And to this statement of yours we agree... but you said we disagree on that statement? Read my response in the other post, there is a detailed explanation of how you put wrong words in my mouth, by stating we disagree as only you believe X (which is inaccurate as I also believe X) whilst our discussion before your wrongful attribution was about Y:

For your ease of reference:

https://christianchat.com/threads/a-saving-faith-vs-a-dead-faith.195680/post-4414959

Your correct, Israel's destiny is that 2/3 will be cut off and die, the 1/3 remnant will be added to the Church and be saved.

Zechariah 13:8-9KJV
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Israel in this instance, being the Judahite-Israelites among the Jews, who have not accepted Christ Yeshua as King yet.

This part of Israel's only Judahite-Jewish people, excludes the already restored Ephraimite-Israelites, already taken up in the Body of Christ, as part of the restoration of the Kingdom of Israel, under Christ Yeshua their King. The inclusion into the Body of Christ, of the Jewish Judahite-Israelites will rightly follow, after they fight a losing battle, without their brothers the Ephraimite-Israelites with their already acknowledged restored Ephraimite-Israelite King Christ Yeshua. Only after this losing battle of the Jewish Judahite-Israelites, they reunite with Ephraimite-Israelites, who are already within the Body of Christ, to form the then fully restored Kingdom of Israel with Christ Yeshua as King.

Looking for the Ephraimites, scattered among the Gentiles, since their Assyrian captivity of 740BC


Acts 1 (ESV)

6 So when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

Please explain who these ephraimite are, where did they come from, when were they taken up?

Please click on this link: Looking for the Ephraimites, scattered among the Gentiles, since their Assyrian captivity of 740BC

Ephraim, the ten northern tribes of Samaria, IS NOT AMONG THE JEWS, the three southern tribes of Judea today, they were scattered AMONG THE GENTILES, since 740BC.

James wrote to them:


James 1 (ESV)

1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion: Greetings.

No, their destiny remains on Earth, with Christ as their king sitting on David's throne in Jerusalem.

Basically, all the promises of land and Zechariah 8 will be fulfilled after the Tribulation.

For the Body of Christ, our destiny is in the heavenly realms with Christ, my belief is that we will replace the fallen angels in the heavens. 1 Corinthians 6:3