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It's a good and fair question.
First of all, I think that it is important to know that, the reason that the living in Christ will simply be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies, is because they will not be dead in order to be resurrected. That said, it is also important to understand what the word 'anastasis' translated as 'Resurrection' means.
==========================================================
Strong's Concordance
anastasis: a standing up, i.e. a resurrection, a raising up, rising
Original Word: ἀνάστασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: anastasis
Phonetic Spelling: (an-as'-tas-is)
Definition: a standing up, a resurrection, a raising up, rising
Usage: a rising again, resurrection.
HELPS Word-studies
386 anástasis (from 303 /aná, "up, again" and 2476 /hístēmi, "to stand") – literally, "stand up" (or "stand again"), referring to physical resurrection (of the body).
Christ's physical resurrection is the foundation of Christianity, which also guarantees the future resurrection of all believers (see Jn 6:39,40,44).
[386 /anástasis ("resurrection") refers to the physical, bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).]
===========================================================
So, according to the definition of anastasis/resurrection, it properly means to stand up again in the same physical body. Jesus is our example of this. For when He appeared to His disciples behind locked doors, they thought that He was a spirit, but He comforts them by showing them His hands and feet (nail marks) that it is Him. Then the Lord says, "A spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see I have." So the resurrection is a physical standing up again.
Those who have died in Christ from the on-set of the church up until the resurrection, their ashes, atoms, molecules, etc. will be reanimated into an immortal and glorified body.
Those in Christ who are still living, wherever they are and whatever they are doing at that moment, will be changed/transformed i.e. into their immortal and glorified bodies.
"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
The word 'atomos' translated as in a flash, moment or instant, is defined as a period of time to short to divide. So, you are correct in that it is the change of our bodies that will take place in an instant. However, I believe that this atomos can be applied to the entire process that takes place, which includes o9ur transformation and being caught up.
Since we know that this change will be a transformation into a physical body with heavenly characteristics, then when this event takes place, whether a believer is driving their car, sleeping, flying on plane, at work, talking with a friend, giving a speech, etc., they are going to be changed on the spot. And as I said earlier, I believe that instant change can be applied to the whole process, so that the change that takes place and their being caught up will be one instantaneous event. In other words, if a believer is speaking to an unbeliever at the time of them being change, there is not going to be a delay in their being caught up to have a conversation with the unbeliever as to what just happened. By that's just my understand of this.
When this event takes place, the entire church from beginning to end, will be gathered in one place at the same time to meet the Lord in the air. Where in fulfillment of John 14:1-3, the Lord will take us all back to the Father's house to those places that He prepared for us so that where He is, we may be also.
So to answer the question, I would say that if a believer is driving a car when they are changed and caught up, then that car will be without a driver. The same goes for flying a plane, speaking in front of a large or small group of people, etc. To the unbeliever, I would suggest that to them and at the speed in which they are changed and are caught up, it will appear that the person has just disappeared before their very eyes. It makes one think about what kind of a world-wide stir that's going to cause. It might cause more mask mandates
Those who have been chosen to be the great tribulation saints, will become believers at that time and will know that the church has been caught up and will prepare themselves for what is coming, pouring over the scriptures, specifically the book of Revelation to understand the events of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as information regarding the antichrist/beast. For they will be trapped in the worst time of the history of the world, the Day of the Lord.
First of all, I think that it is important to know that, the reason that the living in Christ will simply be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies, is because they will not be dead in order to be resurrected. That said, it is also important to understand what the word 'anastasis' translated as 'Resurrection' means.
==========================================================
Strong's Concordance
anastasis: a standing up, i.e. a resurrection, a raising up, rising
Original Word: ἀνάστασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: anastasis
Phonetic Spelling: (an-as'-tas-is)
Definition: a standing up, a resurrection, a raising up, rising
Usage: a rising again, resurrection.
HELPS Word-studies
386 anástasis (from 303 /aná, "up, again" and 2476 /hístēmi, "to stand") – literally, "stand up" (or "stand again"), referring to physical resurrection (of the body).
Christ's physical resurrection is the foundation of Christianity, which also guarantees the future resurrection of all believers (see Jn 6:39,40,44).
[386 /anástasis ("resurrection") refers to the physical, bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).]
===========================================================
So, according to the definition of anastasis/resurrection, it properly means to stand up again in the same physical body. Jesus is our example of this. For when He appeared to His disciples behind locked doors, they thought that He was a spirit, but He comforts them by showing them His hands and feet (nail marks) that it is Him. Then the Lord says, "A spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see I have." So the resurrection is a physical standing up again.
Those who have died in Christ from the on-set of the church up until the resurrection, their ashes, atoms, molecules, etc. will be reanimated into an immortal and glorified body.
Those in Christ who are still living, wherever they are and whatever they are doing at that moment, will be changed/transformed i.e. into their immortal and glorified bodies.
"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
The word 'atomos' translated as in a flash, moment or instant, is defined as a period of time to short to divide. So, you are correct in that it is the change of our bodies that will take place in an instant. However, I believe that this atomos can be applied to the entire process that takes place, which includes o9ur transformation and being caught up.
Since we know that this change will be a transformation into a physical body with heavenly characteristics, then when this event takes place, whether a believer is driving their car, sleeping, flying on plane, at work, talking with a friend, giving a speech, etc., they are going to be changed on the spot. And as I said earlier, I believe that instant change can be applied to the whole process, so that the change that takes place and their being caught up will be one instantaneous event. In other words, if a believer is speaking to an unbeliever at the time of them being change, there is not going to be a delay in their being caught up to have a conversation with the unbeliever as to what just happened. By that's just my understand of this.
When this event takes place, the entire church from beginning to end, will be gathered in one place at the same time to meet the Lord in the air. Where in fulfillment of John 14:1-3, the Lord will take us all back to the Father's house to those places that He prepared for us so that where He is, we may be also.
So to answer the question, I would say that if a believer is driving a car when they are changed and caught up, then that car will be without a driver. The same goes for flying a plane, speaking in front of a large or small group of people, etc. To the unbeliever, I would suggest that to them and at the speed in which they are changed and are caught up, it will appear that the person has just disappeared before their very eyes. It makes one think about what kind of a world-wide stir that's going to cause. It might cause more mask mandates
Those who have been chosen to be the great tribulation saints, will become believers at that time and will know that the church has been caught up and will prepare themselves for what is coming, pouring over the scriptures, specifically the book of Revelation to understand the events of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as information regarding the antichrist/beast. For they will be trapped in the worst time of the history of the world, the Day of the Lord.
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Think about the passengers on the bus when the ready-for-the-rapture driver disappears.
"Good day everyone! I'm Christie your flight attendant. Thank you for flying Trans-global Airways. By the way, does anyone know how to fly a plane?"
What about all the unmanned cars on the freeways going 80 miles an hour?
It gets you thinkin about a whole bunch of scenarios.
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S
It's a good and fair question.
First of all, I think that it is important to know that, the reason that the living in Christ will simply be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies, is because they will not be dead in order to be resurrected. That said, it is also important to understand what the word 'anastasis' translated as 'Resurrection' means.
==========================================================
Strong's Concordance
anastasis: a standing up, i.e. a resurrection, a raising up, rising
Original Word: ἀνάστασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: anastasis
Phonetic Spelling: (an-as'-tas-is)
Definition: a standing up, a resurrection, a raising up, rising
Usage: a rising again, resurrection.
HELPS Word-studies
386 anástasis (from 303 /aná, "up, again" and 2476 /hístēmi, "to stand") – literally, "stand up" (or "stand again"), referring to physical resurrection (of the body).
Christ's physical resurrection is the foundation of Christianity, which also guarantees the future resurrection of all believers (see Jn 6:39,40,44).
[386 /anástasis ("resurrection") refers to the physical, bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).]
===========================================================
So, according to the definition of anastasis/resurrection, it properly means to stand up again in the same physical body. Jesus is our example of this. For when He appeared to His disciples behind locked doors, they thought that He was a spirit, but He comforts them by showing them His hands and feet (nail marks) that it is Him. Then the Lord says, "A spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see I have." So the resurrection is a physical standing up again.
Those who have died in Christ from the on-set of the church up until the resurrection, their ashes, atoms, molecules, etc. will be reanimated into an immortal and glorified body.
Those in Christ who are still living, wherever they are and whatever they are doing at that moment, will be changed/transformed i.e. into their immortal and glorified bodies.
"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
The word 'atomos' translated as in a flash, moment or instant, is defined as a period of time to short to divide. So, you are correct in that it is the change of our bodies that will take place in an instant. However, I believe that this atomos can be applied to the entire process that takes place, which includes o9ur transformation and being caught up.
Since we know that this change will be a transformation into a physical body with heavenly characteristics, then when this event takes place, whether a believer is driving their car, sleeping, flying on plane, at work, talking with a friend, giving a speech, etc., they are going to be changed on the spot. And as I said earlier, I believe that instant change can be applied to the whole process, so that the change that takes place and their being caught up will be one instantaneous event. In other words, if a believer is speaking to an unbeliever at the time of them being change, there is not going to be a delay in their being caught up to have a conversation with the unbeliever as to what just happened. By that's just my understand of this.
When this event takes place, the entire church from beginning to end, will be gathered in one place at the same time to meet the Lord in the air. Where in fulfillment of John 14:1-3, the Lord will take us all back to the Father's house to those places that He prepared for us so that where He is, we may be also.
So to answer the question, I would say that if a believer is driving a car when they are changed and caught up, then that car will be without a driver. The same goes for flying a plane, speaking in front of a large or small group of people, etc. To the unbeliever, I would suggest that to them and at the speed in which they are changed and are caught up, it will appear that the person has just disappeared before their very eyes. It makes one think about what kind of a world-wide stir that's going to cause. It might cause more mask mandates
Those who have been chosen to be the great tribulation saints, will become believers at that time and will know that the church has been caught up and will prepare themselves for what is coming, pouring over the scriptures, specifically the book of Revelation to understand the events of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as information regarding the antichrist/beast. For they will be trapped in the worst time of the history of the world, the Day of the Lord.
First of all, I think that it is important to know that, the reason that the living in Christ will simply be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies, is because they will not be dead in order to be resurrected. That said, it is also important to understand what the word 'anastasis' translated as 'Resurrection' means.
==========================================================
Strong's Concordance
anastasis: a standing up, i.e. a resurrection, a raising up, rising
Original Word: ἀνάστασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: anastasis
Phonetic Spelling: (an-as'-tas-is)
Definition: a standing up, a resurrection, a raising up, rising
Usage: a rising again, resurrection.
HELPS Word-studies
386 anástasis (from 303 /aná, "up, again" and 2476 /hístēmi, "to stand") – literally, "stand up" (or "stand again"), referring to physical resurrection (of the body).
Christ's physical resurrection is the foundation of Christianity, which also guarantees the future resurrection of all believers (see Jn 6:39,40,44).
[386 /anástasis ("resurrection") refers to the physical, bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).]
===========================================================
So, according to the definition of anastasis/resurrection, it properly means to stand up again in the same physical body. Jesus is our example of this. For when He appeared to His disciples behind locked doors, they thought that He was a spirit, but He comforts them by showing them His hands and feet (nail marks) that it is Him. Then the Lord says, "A spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see I have." So the resurrection is a physical standing up again.
Those who have died in Christ from the on-set of the church up until the resurrection, their ashes, atoms, molecules, etc. will be reanimated into an immortal and glorified body.
Those in Christ who are still living, wherever they are and whatever they are doing at that moment, will be changed/transformed i.e. into their immortal and glorified bodies.
"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
The word 'atomos' translated as in a flash, moment or instant, is defined as a period of time to short to divide. So, you are correct in that it is the change of our bodies that will take place in an instant. However, I believe that this atomos can be applied to the entire process that takes place, which includes o9ur transformation and being caught up.
Since we know that this change will be a transformation into a physical body with heavenly characteristics, then when this event takes place, whether a believer is driving their car, sleeping, flying on plane, at work, talking with a friend, giving a speech, etc., they are going to be changed on the spot. And as I said earlier, I believe that instant change can be applied to the whole process, so that the change that takes place and their being caught up will be one instantaneous event. In other words, if a believer is speaking to an unbeliever at the time of them being change, there is not going to be a delay in their being caught up to have a conversation with the unbeliever as to what just happened. By that's just my understand of this.
When this event takes place, the entire church from beginning to end, will be gathered in one place at the same time to meet the Lord in the air. Where in fulfillment of John 14:1-3, the Lord will take us all back to the Father's house to those places that He prepared for us so that where He is, we may be also.
So to answer the question, I would say that if a believer is driving a car when they are changed and caught up, then that car will be without a driver. The same goes for flying a plane, speaking in front of a large or small group of people, etc. To the unbeliever, I would suggest that to them and at the speed in which they are changed and are caught up, it will appear that the person has just disappeared before their very eyes. It makes one think about what kind of a world-wide stir that's going to cause. It might cause more mask mandates
Those who have been chosen to be the great tribulation saints, will become believers at that time and will know that the church has been caught up and will prepare themselves for what is coming, pouring over the scriptures, specifically the book of Revelation to understand the events of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as information regarding the antichrist/beast. For they will be trapped in the worst time of the history of the world, the Day of the Lord.
This statement ... caught up together with them in the clouds, Would really only make sense if it were a visible rising up into the clouds like what happened with Jesus or there would be no sense in mentioning the clouds at all.
We do not think there is any special meeting place in clouds. We do not think that the clouds are the location of our destiny after the changing. Why mention the clouds at all if it is not related to the visible manifestation of what people see when we rise. If their are clouds where they live that day they will see us rise up into them at which time they will not see us any longer because the clouds will obscure their view. This would be the only purpose of mentioning clouds.
If we disappeared from view then simply "meet the Lord in the air" might have an esoteric meaning in simply saying "up there somewhere in that unknown heavenly realm" which is indeed where we are going, but this mention of the CLOUDS is a transition from the physical manifestation until the point at which we are no longer seen (from the perspective of those looking up from the earth)
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, (as those that observe would describe what they saw)
And also it is probable that at this time they will shine like the stars and like Jesus on the mount from the perspective of those observing from the earth as they watch us rise into the clouds.
I can't prove it beyond a doubt but currently, I am leaning toward this interpretation. I think I am on to something and I wanted to share it with you and see if anyone else has had the same interpretation. I have seen artist portrayals of what they imagine and so I know that I am not the only one who has thought this.
S
So in my interpretation of the text which I think is more faithful to the mention of the clouds, I would imagine your hypothetical cab driver shining like a star and with visible glory rising up while people look out their cars and observe other stars rising up and it would all be caught on dash cams. ...YESSS!!!
To the Praise of the Glory of His Grace. Christ IN US! The DayStar Arising in our Hearts! The Day of our Redemption! The MANIFESTATION of the sons of GOD! Partakers of the same Glory that Christ said we would partake of that Peter witnessed on the Mount. Transfigured with the whitest light and bright as the firmament. Glory to God who has made us partakers of inheritance of the the saints in LIGHT.
Well, meeting the Lord in the air, does not necessarily mean in a slow ascent, as the Lord's was when He ascended up in the sight of the disciples. We also don't have any scripture that would tell us how long we remain in the clouds, only that we will meet the Lord in the air. The whole event could take place in a Nano second.
As I stated in my post, the word anastasis properly means to stand up again in a physical body. So while agree that we would be visible, we don't know if the entire event of being caught up and meeting the Lord in the air as being lingering event or one that takes place in the twinkling of an eye.
Shining like stars is a reference to our glorified state that we take on at the resurrection and being changed. Not sure if it is to be applied to those viewing from the earth. There is just not enough information there. But as I said, I see the entire event from being changed, caught up and taken back to the Father's house, as one event which will take place in the blink of an eye.
Regardless, it is good that we are both looking forward to this event.
As I stated in my post, the word anastasis properly means to stand up again in a physical body. So while agree that we would be visible, we don't know if the entire event of being caught up and meeting the Lord in the air as being lingering event or one that takes place in the twinkling of an eye.
Shining like stars is a reference to our glorified state that we take on at the resurrection and being changed. Not sure if it is to be applied to those viewing from the earth. There is just not enough information there. But as I said, I see the entire event from being changed, caught up and taken back to the Father's house, as one event which will take place in the blink of an eye.
Regardless, it is good that we are both looking forward to this event.
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We need to compare the scriptures telling of the first time Christ appeared to the scriptures telling of the second time Christ will appear. Scholars were just as intelligence then as scholars are today and pulled them apart as we are doing. Those scriptures did not tell them in ways they understood the step by step way Christ would accomplish His appearance, and the same thing is happening with the second appearance of Christ.
[note: I'll come back later to give my view of the OP Q , I just wanted to address this particular post for the moment... I'm on a tight schedule today]
[quoting a post of mine]
Now, back to the "First Advent" issue I mentioned...
--Micah 5:2 speaks of the COMING FORTH at Bethlehem,
--and Zechariah 9:9 speaks of the COMING UNTO Jerusalem.
...which one of these two passages speak of it?
Or do both of them speak of His "First Advent" happenings?
--one being His "BIRTH" ['[out of you (Bethlehem) to Me] SHALL COME FORTH'];
--the other being what took place on the very day that the "69 Weeks" CONCLUDED [on Palm Sunday and what is commonly called 'the Triumphal Entry'],
when He SAID the Lk19:41-44 thing [parallel the wording in both Lk21:20,23 and Matt22:7 (re: the 70ad events)],
and when He DID the Zech9:9 thing ['thy King COMETH UNTO *thee* [speaking of Jerusalem / the city]'])
--Micah 5:2 -
"But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee SHALL HE COME FORTH unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."
--Zechariah 9:9 - [see also Lk19:41-44 and context]
"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King COMETH UNTO thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass."
Is only ONE of these ^ passage speaking of His "FIRST ADVENT," or are both of them about that, even though speaking of events some THIRTY YEARS APART!
(whereas other passages speak of events surrounding [what we commonly call] His "SECOND ADVENT," yet future--some of them also covering A SPANS OF TIME OF SOME DURATION, just as in His "First Advent" events did ).
[it seems there were a few who had some grasp of when to expect Him... I'm thinking of the "maji/wise men from the east"... and Simeon, for example (Lk2:26 - '26 The Holy Spirit had revealed to him that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.')]
, I just wanted to address this particular post for the moment... I'm on a tight schedule today][quoting a post of mine]
Now, back to the "First Advent" issue I mentioned...
--Micah 5:2 speaks of the COMING FORTH at Bethlehem,
--and Zechariah 9:9 speaks of the COMING UNTO Jerusalem.
...which one of these two passages speak of it?
Or do both of them speak of His "First Advent" happenings?
--one being His "BIRTH" ['[out of you (Bethlehem) to Me] SHALL COME FORTH'];
--the other being what took place on the very day that the "69 Weeks" CONCLUDED [on Palm Sunday and what is commonly called 'the Triumphal Entry'],
when He SAID the Lk19:41-44 thing [parallel the wording in both Lk21:20,23 and Matt22:7 (re: the 70ad events)],
and when He DID the Zech9:9 thing ['thy King COMETH UNTO *thee* [speaking of Jerusalem / the city]'])
--Micah 5:2 -
"But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee SHALL HE COME FORTH unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."
--Zechariah 9:9 - [see also Lk19:41-44 and context]
"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King COMETH UNTO thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass."
Is only ONE of these ^ passage speaking of His "FIRST ADVENT," or are both of them about that, even though speaking of events some THIRTY YEARS APART!
(whereas other passages speak of events surrounding [what we commonly call] His "SECOND ADVENT," yet future--some of them also covering A SPANS OF TIME OF SOME DURATION, just as in His "First Advent" events did
).[it seems there were a few who had some grasp of when to expect Him... I'm thinking of the "maji/wise men from the east"... and Simeon, for example (Lk2:26 - '26 The Holy Spirit had revealed to him that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.')]
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[note: I'll come back later to give my view of the OP Q , I just wanted to address this particular post for the moment... I'm on a tight schedule today]
[quoting a post of mine]
Now, back to the "First Advent" issue I mentioned...
--Micah 5:2 speaks of the COMING FORTH at Bethlehem,
--and Zechariah 9:9 speaks of the COMING UNTO Jerusalem.
...which one of these two passages speak of it?
Or do both of them speak of His "First Advent" happenings?
--one being His "BIRTH" ['[out of you (Bethlehem) to Me] SHALL COME FORTH'];
--the other being what took place on the very day that the "69 Weeks" CONCLUDED [on Palm Sunday and what is commonly called 'the Triumphal Entry'],
when He SAID the Lk19:41-44 thing [parallel the wording in both Lk21:20,23 and Matt22:7 (re: the 70ad events)],
and when He DID the Zech9:9 thing ['thy King COMETH UNTO *thee* [speaking of Jerusalem / the city]'])
--Micah 5:2 -
"But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee SHALL HE COME FORTH unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."
--Zechariah 9:9 - [see also Lk19:41-44 and context]
"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King COMETH UNTO thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass."
Is only ONE of these ^ passage speaking of His "FIRST ADVENT," or are both of them about that, even though speaking of events some THIRTY YEARS APART!
(whereas other passages speak of events surrounding [what we commonly call] His "SECOND ADVENT," yet future--some of them also covering A SPANS OF TIME OF SOME DURATION, just as in His "First Advent" events did ).
[it seems there were a few who had some grasp of when to expect Him... I'm thinking of the "maji/wise men from the east"... and Simeon, for example (Lk2:26 - '26 The Holy Spirit had revealed to him that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.')]
, I just wanted to address this particular post for the moment... I'm on a tight schedule today][quoting a post of mine]
Now, back to the "First Advent" issue I mentioned...
--Micah 5:2 speaks of the COMING FORTH at Bethlehem,
--and Zechariah 9:9 speaks of the COMING UNTO Jerusalem.
...which one of these two passages speak of it?
Or do both of them speak of His "First Advent" happenings?
--one being His "BIRTH" ['[out of you (Bethlehem) to Me] SHALL COME FORTH'];
--the other being what took place on the very day that the "69 Weeks" CONCLUDED [on Palm Sunday and what is commonly called 'the Triumphal Entry'],
when He SAID the Lk19:41-44 thing [parallel the wording in both Lk21:20,23 and Matt22:7 (re: the 70ad events)],
and when He DID the Zech9:9 thing ['thy King COMETH UNTO *thee* [speaking of Jerusalem / the city]'])
--Micah 5:2 -
"But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee SHALL HE COME FORTH unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."
--Zechariah 9:9 - [see also Lk19:41-44 and context]
"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King COMETH UNTO thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass."
Is only ONE of these ^ passage speaking of His "FIRST ADVENT," or are both of them about that, even though speaking of events some THIRTY YEARS APART!
(whereas other passages speak of events surrounding [what we commonly call] His "SECOND ADVENT," yet future--some of them also covering A SPANS OF TIME OF SOME DURATION, just as in His "First Advent" events did
).[it seems there were a few who had some grasp of when to expect Him... I'm thinking of the "maji/wise men from the east"... and Simeon, for example (Lk2:26 - '26 The Holy Spirit had revealed to him that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.')]
I didn't post to be as Sinatra sang to "All or Nothing at All", but to keep our hearts and minds open to the Lord.
No worries, Blik, I understood you. It's just that your post made a nice segue into what I wanted to later post (which I now have a minute to at least post something RELATED to the OP Q, as I see it... so this post is my answer to that [i.e. my view/opinion as to how it will all go down, as far as "will it be VISIBLE or NOT VISIBLE?" ])
So... for this post, I want to make sure the readers know a few things (about my views):
--I am "pre-trib"... but the following post, I'm putting, is not covering [so much] the doctrinal passages in which I come to the "pre-trib" conclusion/viewpoint (that would be found/determined elsewhere in Scripture);
--that this is my opinion on "HOW" I think it will take place (VISIBLE or NOT VISIBLE), per the OP Q (and why), but the passages I will present are not "where" (in Scripture) I find the "pre-trib DOCTRINE [re: our Rapture];
--I believe pretty much every one of the OP passages (quoted there) are centered more around "His Second Coming to the earth" (and NOT "Rapture" contexts [or at least, not exclusively so, if that makes sense]): Matt13:43 (2nd Coming), Mk9:1-3 and 2Pet1:16-19 (the Transfiguration--a snapshot-glimpse of His Second Coming glory); 2Th1:5-10 (and actually BOTH chpts, Paul is covering the entire spans of the two distinct events [occurring 7-yrs apart], just like Daniel 9:27a-b-c[26b] does, and other passages in the same exact way ['beginning... middle... end' of the 7 yrs]);
--I forget the fourth point I was going to put here... (I'll wait and see if it comes to me, IN [the-nick-of-] TIME, LOL)... but I'm going to just quote two of my old posts which show how I've come to my "viewpoint/opinion" on the "HOW [it might look]," but keep in mind those were posts in the context of a DIFFERENT CONVO, so they are going to seem a bit rambly... but I'd rather the readers at least see how I've come to this opinion (as to 'VISIBLE' or 'NOT VISIBLE'); ...OH... it just came to me... LOL...
--I've put in past posts how I believe Paul is a TYPE of the future "144,000" [who will exist in the trib yrs, and come to faith FOLLOWING our "Departure"] (there's a study out there somewhere, showing the connecting points [of this particular "TYPE": Paul a type of the 144,000]... and not a few), and at his "Damascus Road" experience, it says, "SUDDENLY, there shined round about him a light from heaven" (so I can see the parallels of the KIND of thing the OP is suggesting... but I don't use [or see it, via] the same passages as the OP )
[now that I've INTRO-ed my post, I'll make those two posts I'm putting forth, into the NEXT post, for this is already becoming a LONG post in itself... My apologies... back in a few, after I go grab that! ]
])So... for this post, I want to make sure the readers know a few things (about my views):
--I am "pre-trib"... but the following post, I'm putting, is not covering [so much] the doctrinal passages in which I come to the "pre-trib" conclusion/viewpoint (that would be found/determined elsewhere in Scripture);
--that this is my opinion on "HOW" I think it will take place (VISIBLE or NOT VISIBLE), per the OP Q (and why), but the passages I will present are not "where" (in Scripture) I find the "pre-trib DOCTRINE [re: our Rapture];
--I believe pretty much every one of the OP passages (quoted there) are centered more around "His Second Coming to the earth" (and NOT "Rapture" contexts [or at least, not exclusively so, if that makes sense]): Matt13:43 (2nd Coming), Mk9:1-3 and 2Pet1:16-19 (the Transfiguration--a snapshot-glimpse of His Second Coming glory); 2Th1:5-10 (and actually BOTH chpts, Paul is covering the entire spans of the two distinct events [occurring 7-yrs apart], just like Daniel 9:27a-b-c[26b] does, and other passages in the same exact way ['beginning... middle... end' of the 7 yrs]);
--I forget the fourth point I was going to put here... (I'll wait and see if it comes to me, IN [the-nick-of-] TIME, LOL)... but I'm going to just quote two of my old posts which show how I've come to my "viewpoint/opinion" on the "HOW [it might look]," but keep in mind those were posts in the context of a DIFFERENT CONVO, so they are going to seem a bit rambly... but I'd rather the readers at least see how I've come to this opinion (as to 'VISIBLE' or 'NOT VISIBLE'); ...OH... it just came to me... LOL...
--I've put in past posts how I believe Paul is a TYPE of the future "144,000" [who will exist in the trib yrs, and come to faith FOLLOWING our "Departure"] (there's a study out there somewhere, showing the connecting points [of this particular "TYPE": Paul a type of the 144,000]... and not a few), and at his "Damascus Road" experience, it says, "SUDDENLY, there shined round about him a light from heaven" (so I can see the parallels of the KIND of thing the OP is suggesting... but I don't use [or see it, via] the same passages as the OP
)[now that I've INTRO-ed my post, I'll make those two posts I'm putting forth, into the NEXT post, for this is already becoming a LONG post in itself... My apologies... back in a few, after I go grab that!
][continued from previous post]
[quoting old posts of mine--note that these were in the CONTEXT of a DIFFERENT CONVO, but they relate... and I present them as a time-saving way to present my opinion (per the OP Q)]
"Jesus saith unto her [MM], Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend [active] unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." John 20:17
A few things to note:
--"He appeared [G5316] FIRST unto MM" Mark 16:9
--He tells her [the words in the aforementioned verse] "SAY UNTO THEM" [and I believe He meant what He said, that He was going to do that this very day (ON FIRSTFRUIT, Lev23:10-12)--And why tell HER to "SAY unto them" if He would be in their presence later that very same day (Lk24:36-41) and could just as easily have "told them" Himself (why assign this to MM?? as if saying 'I'm too lazy to tell them Myself when I see them later today!' ??),
...as though He had been referring to the much later Acts 1 ascension event,
...or better, simply have SHOWN them Himself IF "resurrection" were the sole thing being spoken of here. No. He MEANT (and DID that very day) "ASCEND [ACTIVE] TO MY FATHER"... and since He (later that same day) said to them "handle Me," then we can be fairly assurred that He had (by then) already accomplished this task He'd mentioned (thus fulfilling Lev23:10-12 ON FIRSTFRUIT/His Resurrection Day... literally)]
--"the WORDS of them [of MM, but also of Joanna, Mary the mother of James] appeared [G5316] to them as folly/idle words/idle tales/nonsense and they did not believe [/they disbelieved] them." Luke 24:10-11
--they did not believe the report of the "two [Emmaus-road-walkers]" either, who had eaten with Him when He "took bread" (when He had then "VANISHED out of their sight" Luke 24:29-31 [v.33 says, "they rose up that same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered-together [sunathroizo], and them that were with them"]--which "two" also "told what things were done in the way, and how He was known of them in the breaking of bread." v.35)
--Jesus later ("afterward [can mean "lastly/finally/last of all"]) "...He appeared [G5319] unto the eleven... and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen Him after He was risen." Mark 16:14
--Jesus' [40-day-]LATER (VISIBLE) "ascension" (as we call it) always seems to be expressed as "passive" (taken up, etc--Acts 1 and other passages about this); whereas the earlier one [ON FF] always seems to be [expressed/spoken/written] in the "active"
--His VISIBLE ascension (40-d later, Acts 1) is said to be how He will "so come in like manner AS YE HAVE SEEN HIM going [G4198 - poreuomenon - traveling/journeying] into heaven" (reflective of how He will "RETURN" to the earth, Rev19 etc "every eye shall see Him," that is, those present on the earth at that time [which could also involve "resurrected" people, like Dan12:13 "thou shalt stand in thy lot at the end of the days [the end of the days of that context, vv.5-7,1]"]--note: Daniel [OT saint] was promised "resurrection," not "rapture" [which 'rapture' pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence])])
--all of this, in my view, is a picture/pattern of something greater
____________
[and... quoting the other old post]
[regarding your mention of "pattern" (<--TDW: in the CONVO back then)]
Well, you may recall (or maybe you weren't here during those threads) my saying that His ascension in Acts 1 (which was VISIBLE) and explained to be how He will "shall SO COME in like manner as ye have SEEN Him go [/traveling] into Heaven" (referring to the time of His Second Coming to the earth [Rev19]) was separated by some "40 days" ['40'='trial" "testing" etc] from His EARLIER "[ACTIVE] ascension" ON FIRSTFRUIT [His RESURRECTION DAY; Lev23:10-12 / 1Cor15:20 / Acts 13:33 / etc] when no one SAW Him "ascend [i.e. traveling vertically upward into Heaven]," but MM was TOLD to TELL SOMETHING in particular... [recall, "He appeared FIRST to MM" (some suggest she was a Gentile [??])]
...and MM only had His "WORD" that He was doing so
...and He instructed her to "go to my brethren, and SAY UNTO them..." (which much later that same day "He upbraided [the eleven] with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because THEY BELIEVED NOT them which had seen Him after He was risen." i.e. they believed not the TELLING of it, meaning, INCLUDING the particular testimony MM was given [especially] to TELL/SAY UNTO them [i.e. the specific thing about His "I ASCEND [active]"... and which no one that day SAW take place... but the one thing that comes close, is that He "VANISHED" out of the sight of the "2 Emmaus-Road-walkers" when He had "sat at meat with them" that very evening, quite late, but BEFORE Jesus showed up later that same evening to "the eleven" where it says "Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them" and adds (to now) "...Handle Me, and see"])
I believe THIS pattern is consistent with the future happenings we are discussing now, however, I would not suggest that THIS is "proof of pre-trib" [which I find "doctrinally" in OTHER passages], it's simply my personal viewpoint of an additional factor [as a 'pattern' of the MANNER IN WHICH it likely will take place] which also adds to everything else I've mentioned in this thread and other threads about this subject.
[end quoting those two old posts]
[quoting old posts of mine--note that these were in the CONTEXT of a DIFFERENT CONVO, but they relate... and I present them as a time-saving way to present my opinion (per the OP Q)]
"Jesus saith unto her [MM], Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend [active] unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." John 20:17
A few things to note:
--"He appeared [G5316] FIRST unto MM" Mark 16:9
--He tells her [the words in the aforementioned verse] "SAY UNTO THEM" [and I believe He meant what He said, that He was going to do that this very day (ON FIRSTFRUIT, Lev23:10-12)--And why tell HER to "SAY unto them" if He would be in their presence later that very same day (Lk24:36-41) and could just as easily have "told them" Himself (why assign this to MM?? as if saying 'I'm too lazy to tell them Myself when I see them later today!' ??),
...as though He had been referring to the much later Acts 1 ascension event,
...or better, simply have SHOWN them Himself IF "resurrection" were the sole thing being spoken of here. No. He MEANT (and DID that very day) "ASCEND [ACTIVE] TO MY FATHER"... and since He (later that same day) said to them "handle Me," then we can be fairly assurred that He had (by then) already accomplished this task He'd mentioned (thus fulfilling Lev23:10-12 ON FIRSTFRUIT/His Resurrection Day... literally)]
--"the WORDS of them [of MM, but also of Joanna, Mary the mother of James] appeared [G5316] to them as folly/idle words/idle tales/nonsense and they did not believe [/they disbelieved] them." Luke 24:10-11
--they did not believe the report of the "two [Emmaus-road-walkers]" either, who had eaten with Him when He "took bread" (when He had then "VANISHED out of their sight" Luke 24:29-31 [v.33 says, "they rose up that same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered-together [sunathroizo], and them that were with them"]--which "two" also "told what things were done in the way, and how He was known of them in the breaking of bread." v.35)
--Jesus later ("afterward [can mean "lastly/finally/last of all"]) "...He appeared [G5319] unto the eleven... and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen Him after He was risen." Mark 16:14
--Jesus' [40-day-]LATER (VISIBLE) "ascension" (as we call it) always seems to be expressed as "passive" (taken up, etc--Acts 1 and other passages about this); whereas the earlier one [ON FF] always seems to be [expressed/spoken/written] in the "active"
--His VISIBLE ascension (40-d later, Acts 1) is said to be how He will "so come in like manner AS YE HAVE SEEN HIM going [G4198 - poreuomenon - traveling/journeying] into heaven" (reflective of how He will "RETURN" to the earth, Rev19 etc "every eye shall see Him," that is, those present on the earth at that time [which could also involve "resurrected" people, like Dan12:13 "thou shalt stand in thy lot at the end of the days [the end of the days of that context, vv.5-7,1]"]--note: Daniel [OT saint] was promised "resurrection," not "rapture" [which 'rapture' pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence])])
--all of this, in my view, is a picture/pattern of something greater
____________
[and... quoting the other old post]
[regarding your mention of "pattern" (<--TDW: in the CONVO back then)]
Well, you may recall (or maybe you weren't here during those threads) my saying that His ascension in Acts 1 (which was VISIBLE) and explained to be how He will "shall SO COME in like manner as ye have SEEN Him go [/traveling] into Heaven" (referring to the time of His Second Coming to the earth [Rev19]) was separated by some "40 days" ['40'='trial" "testing" etc] from His EARLIER "[ACTIVE] ascension" ON FIRSTFRUIT [His RESURRECTION DAY; Lev23:10-12 / 1Cor15:20 / Acts 13:33 / etc] when no one SAW Him "ascend [i.e. traveling vertically upward into Heaven]," but MM was TOLD to TELL SOMETHING in particular... [recall, "He appeared FIRST to MM" (some suggest she was a Gentile [??])]
...and MM only had His "WORD" that He was doing so
...and He instructed her to "go to my brethren, and SAY UNTO them..." (which much later that same day "He upbraided [the eleven] with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because THEY BELIEVED NOT them which had seen Him after He was risen." i.e. they believed not the TELLING of it, meaning, INCLUDING the particular testimony MM was given [especially] to TELL/SAY UNTO them [i.e. the specific thing about His "I ASCEND [active]"... and which no one that day SAW take place... but the one thing that comes close, is that He "VANISHED" out of the sight of the "2 Emmaus-Road-walkers" when He had "sat at meat with them" that very evening, quite late, but BEFORE Jesus showed up later that same evening to "the eleven" where it says "Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them" and adds (to now) "...Handle Me, and see"])
I believe THIS pattern is consistent with the future happenings we are discussing now, however, I would not suggest that THIS is "proof of pre-trib" [which I find "doctrinally" in OTHER passages], it's simply my personal viewpoint of an additional factor [as a 'pattern' of the MANNER IN WHICH it likely will take place] which also adds to everything else I've mentioned in this thread and other threads about this subject.
[end quoting those two old posts]
A note on astronomers. The stars and heavenly bodies creatwed by our Father are for signs of seasons and certain events.
Astronomers of old were not the zodiacal odd folds of today called astronomers.
The wise men were most likely knowledgeable of the writings of men of God and were aware of the Star that was to be placed to lead them to the Babe Who waqs born to save all.
Now, I would never make the wise men a cult following, but at the same time, they were given by God to go to the Child and adore and worship Him. All love and blessings in Yeshua-Jesus.
Astronomers of old were not the zodiacal odd folds of today called astronomers.
The wise men were most likely knowledgeable of the writings of men of God and were aware of the Star that was to be placed to lead them to the Babe Who waqs born to save all.
Now, I would never make the wise men a cult following, but at the same time, they were given by God to go to the Child and adore and worship Him. All love and blessings in Yeshua-Jesus.