Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

All I am saying is that you are doing it outside and against the directions of the Scriptures......PEROID!

There are ZERO Scriptures that give directions of any kind of Apostolic succession....NONE!

There is NO proof whatsoever that YOU were included with the ELEVEN Apostles who stood in front of Jesus 2000 years and received the Sign Gifts.

Well......I'm still speaking in tongues, seeing visions and having dreams.....

Perhaps I did not get the "Memo".........

Come on!!! Open your eyes and hearts and mind....ALL the signs will INCREASE as the END draws near! It's absolutely CRAZY to say all the "signs" ceased!

"unintelligible noises" is EXACTLY how Satan would describe the Gift of Tongues that a Believer has been given....hmmmmm probably because the Holy Spirit is speaking secrets and the kingdom of darkness cannot intercept the message or interfere in what God is doing.........

I was pointing out your inconsistent reasoning. If that seems childish to you, maybe you are not mature enough in your reasoning to see the problem. You are the one playing games with words.

I'm not sure if you demonstrate the same rude smugness about being wrong in your own church that you do online, but I suspect some group somewhere tolerates you.

Hmmmm. Did not seem like it to me

In all Christian love and respect, be careful and stay safe.

That’s because you assumed things

i just asked you a question and you assumed things which were not true instead of answering the question

It's the other way around. An experience is confirmed by scripture. After we come to follow Christ, we are to be led by the Holy Spirit. It sounds like you only trust your 5 senses, yet our walk is a spiritual one.

I can appreciate that. But if that is the case, then I wonder why you attacked my desire to know the truth rather than dealing with the grammatical issue up front.



I appreciate when Greek and Hebrew scholars, in spite of their seminary or university's agenda or their own personal biases are willing to admit when the language is inconclusive. I think this is one of those cases.



I find the idea that the use of the third class conditional as evidence that Paul was saying or implying that he did not speak in the tongues of angels to be rather lacking considering its use in Hebrews 4:13, etc.



I think you are coming at it from the wrong angle. I am always suspicious of the type of reasoning that says, 'Word X is ambiguous between meanings A and B. If Paul had used word Y, then we would be certain then we would be certain be meant A. But he used X, so he did not mean A. ' Sorry if that takes a bit of concentration to digest. But I do not see Paul as coming down definitely on one side or another here in I Corinthians 13, just suggesting a possibility, like an 'if' statement renders it in English. If Hebrews 4:13 does not prove that the author is convinced that the readers would remain steadfast in their confidence to the end, then it does not stand to reason to interpret I Corinthians 13:1 must mean that Paul is saying that he definitely did not speak in the tongues of men and of angels.

I also gather that the KJV's, 'Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels' is an inaccurate translation.

I can use this...'Why didn't Paul say something more clear and definitive' argument to ask you why, if your interpretation is correct, that Paul did not use the second class conditional and make it clear that he did not speak in the tongues of men and of angels.

In I Corinthians 14, Paul contrasts praying in tongues with praying with his mind. If he did not know what language he spoke, he might not know if it were a tongue of men and of angels.

The way you presented the third class conditional as the most uncertain.... could be misconstrued to go beyond a description of a grammatical category to have semantic meanings that might be unjustified.

Can we both agree that 'If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels' (or if we use 'languages' there) that this is a fairly accurate representation of the Greek? Paul does not say that he is speaking in tongues of men and of angels or that he is not in this particular phrase, but saying _if_ he did.

Given that you both "liked" Roger's post in which he insulted me "for the cause of Christ", and that in response to that post, you stated to him, "Correct and Biblical response", your "In all Christian love and respect" is empty and hollow, and your understanding of those terms is questionable at best.

I see no reason to interact with you further.

Those who insist that spiritual gifts and spiritual ministries have ceased and are not for today, must, if they are to be consistent, insist that God has removed them all, and not just some of them. If they really believe that spiritual gifts are not for today, how is it that they pray for Divine healing? For this is a gift of healing. How is it that they pray for illumination upon a problem, or guidance from God? For this is a word of wisdom. How is it that they pray for ministers of the Gospel to receive the Holy Spirit's anointing? and for Satan's power to be lifted off people? and for people to be blessed? For these are the operations of the gift of faith. How is it that they pray for material needs to be met? For this is the province of the working of miracles. How is it that they pray for a revelation of God to the soul? For this is a discerning of spirits. How is it that they pray for an inspired utterance from God to help others? For this is the realm of prophecy. How is it that they pray for the Holy Spirit to inspire them in prayer? and then reject the gift of tongues, which is the Divine answer to this request. It is a fact that Christians who say that spiritual gifts have ceased to operate in the Church, actually pray for their manifestation. Those who reject spiritual gifts completely, have in reality tried to remove God's influence from His Church, and put it in the hands of men. We must accept that God has decreed that we need these gifts, and not frustrate the wise and loving reasons for their manifestation.

Christians who say that spiritual gifts are not for today are really unwilling to seek God for those gifts; they refuse to submit to the experience that God desires to give them. They are not prepared to accept the full Scriptural standard, or the Lordship or wisdom of Christ over these spiritual gifts. Those who reject spiritual gifts completely, would in reality totally remove God's influence from His Church. If God only works through His word today, as some insist, there is no point in the ministries of the Holy Spirit at all. Paul clearly states in 1Cor 12v21, that we cannot say that we have no need of these ministries and gifts, they are all essential, if Christ's body is to function as He intends. It is only difficult for Christians to witness effectively if God's gifts and ministries are missing.

Some would say, “I believe in God's power and influence, but how can you be sure that you will get the Holy Spirit and not some evil spirit?” We answer that true Christians believe the promise of Christ, that they cannot receive any false spirit or gift, if they are seeking God for His gifts and blessing. Indeed, the Scriptures emphatically state that it is only by seeking God for His power and gifts that we can be spiritually safe, and successfully resist the Devil, we certainly can't outwit or defeat Satan on our own. Psalm 24v3-6, 27v1-14, 42v1-11, 46v10, 62v1,2, Acts 1v14, 2v42, 3v1, 4v29-33, 6v2-4, 8v14-17, 9v11,12, 10v2,9-20, 12v5,12, 13v1-4, etc. Eph 6v10-20, James 4v7-10, 1Pet 5v5-11. etc. Those who refuse to seek God's power for fear of receiving some false spirit, have in reality already been defeated by Satan, and have shown a lack of faith in God's ability to care for His children. Satan kept Israel out of Canaan through fear and unbelief; they could not trust God to look after them. Indeed, the Scriptures reveal that it has always been those who have failed to seek God for His blessing and spiritual gifts, who have been influenced by evil spirits. Heb 3 and 4.

I'm thinking of a line in a hymn, 'How I've proved Him 'ore and 'ore.' Is it wrong to sing that?

Doesn't the psalmist model appealing to experience when he writes in Psalm 37:
"25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread."?

And was Peter wrong to write the following?
I Peter 2:3
If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.


Paul does not treat experience as a bad thing either. It is presented in a positive light in Romans 5.

3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

It is a normal thing for a Christian who walks in the faith to find the teachings of the Bible to be true in his or her own life, and it is a good thing to testify to that to others.

I do occasionally see cessationists arguing that certain spiritual gifts have ceased based on the fact that they have not experienced these gifts in their own life experience. Lack of experience is no basis for doctrine. But experience that confirms the word of God is a good thing.

"unintelligible noises" is EXACTLY how Satan would describe the Gift of Tongues that a Believer has been given....hmmmmm probably because the Holy Spirit is speaking secrets and the kingdom of darkness cannot intercept the message or interfere in what God is doing.........

On the contrary, the scriptures say to earnestly desire spiritual gifts, to covet to prophesy, to forbid not to speak with tongues, to let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge. They say to quench not the Spirit; despise prophesyings; hold fast to that which is good. It is unfortunately that cessationism leads to disobedience to scriptures written to the church. The scriptures do not direct as you teach in this thread.



What does that have to do with the topic of the discussion? 'Apostolic succession' is the idea that priests and bishops were ordained by bishops going back to the apostles.



Nor is this a relevant point. Mark 16 speaks of the apostles preaching and them that believe doing miracles.

Either you misunderstood me, which is possible, or you and I are about as far apart on this issue as we can be.

While we should not seek mere experiences for their own sake, what we do experience should indeed line up with what Scripture is teaching us. If it doesn't, something is wrong.

For example (from the perspective of a hypothetical newer believer): Scripture tells me that God will provide for my needs. If my needs (genuine, not frivolous) are consistently not being met, and I cannot discern any earthly reason for it, then I begin to wonder whether Scripture is true. The nature of the human heart is not the issue; either there is food to eat, or there is not. If I can't see evidence in the real world for God's existence and activity, why would I trust Him with things I can't see and can barely comprehend?

On the contrary, and I have heard many testimonies that align with this, God provides for His children in unexpected, surprising, and even miraculous ways. Cheques show up in the mail at the last minute, strangers drop off meals, bills are reduced or eliminated, an acquaintance gives you a car when you need it most, and on, and on, and on. God is not opposed to His children seeking Him for their needs, and He is still in the business of providing for them.

Scripture tells me that God has given His children certain gifts, and I believe Him. When real-world experiences occur, and I see that they are in line with what Scripture teaches, my belief in Scripture is confirmed. I don't seek to confirm Scripture with experience, but I allow experience to confirm Scripture. There's a big difference.

Thanks for the clarification. Can agree with about 80% of your post. One question - you seem to imply that you would have doubts about God if you did not see experiences that are taught in Scripture, ie... God taking care of His own but why are your statements about the physical needs? It is nice that God helps us in those areas but the real important issues are in our spiritual life. The uplifting of the soul. The preparation of us for eternity.

If I died tomorrow - then so be it. Whether that be from famine, disease or murder. This will only hasten my being with the Lord. This is one of the big problems for so many Charismatics who cling to a "Prosperity Gospel". Kenneth Copeland, saying: "You can have your best life now." I don't want my best life now - I want it in eternity with the Lord. These people taking passages of Scripture like: Isa. 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed - and making it about physical healing and blessing, when the context of the Scripture is purely about healing our transgressions against God. Establishing righteousness and forgiving of sins. There is no promise here of physical well being. This kind of abuse of Scripture makes me ILL.

To those who claim to possess these gifts today; Why are you not going to hospitals and clearing them out? Why are you not raising the dead for grieving loved ones? Why are you not prophesying extra- biblical events that have been verified as coming to pass? When have you done things "even greater" than Jesus did?

I say shame on you for allowing so many to die from Covid-19 when you could have went out and healed them.

Those who insist that spiritual gifts and spiritual ministries have ceased and are not for today, must, if they are to be consistent, insist that God has removed them all, and not just some of them. If they really believe that spiritual gifts are not for today, how is it that they pray for Divine healing? For this is a gift of healing. How is it that they pray for illumination upon a problem, or guidance from God? For this is a word of wisdom. How is it that they pray for ministers of the Gospel to receive the Holy Spirit's anointing? and for Satan's power to be lifted off people? and for people to be blessed? For these are the operations of the gift of faith. How is it that they pray for material needs to be met? For this is the province of the working of miracles. How is it that they pray for a revelation of God to the soul? For this is a discerning of spirits. How is it that they pray for an inspired utterance from God to help others? For this is the realm of prophecy. How is it that they pray for the Holy Spirit to inspire them in prayer? and then reject the gift of tongues, which is the Divine answer to this request. It is a fact that Christians who say that spiritual gifts have ceased to operate in the Church, actually pray for their manifestation. Those who reject spiritual gifts completely, have in reality tried to remove God's influence from His Church, and put it in the hands of men. We must accept that God has decreed that we need these gifts, and not frustrate the wise and loving reasons for their manifestation.

Christians who say that spiritual gifts are not for today are really unwilling to seek God for those gifts; they refuse to submit to the experience that God desires to give them. They are not prepared to accept the full Scriptural standard, or the Lordship or wisdom of Christ over these spiritual gifts. Those who reject spiritual gifts completely, would in reality totally remove God's influence from His Church. If God only works through His word today, as some insist, there is no point in the ministries of the Holy Spirit at all. Paul clearly states in 1Cor 12v21, that we cannot say that we have no need of these ministries and gifts, they are all essential, if Christ's body is to function as He intends. It is only difficult for Christians to witness effectively if God's gifts and ministries are missing.

Some would say, “I believe in God's power and influence, but how can you be sure that you will get the Holy Spirit and not some evil spirit?” We answer that true Christians believe the promise of Christ, that they cannot receive any false spirit or gift, if they are seeking God for His gifts and blessing. Indeed, the Scriptures emphatically state that it is only by seeking God for His power and gifts that we can be spiritually safe, and successfully resist the Devil, we certainly can't outwit or defeat Satan on our own. Psalm 24v3-6, 27v1-14, 42v1-11, 46v10, 62v1,2, Acts 1v14, 2v42, 3v1, 4v29-33, 6v2-4, 8v14-17, 9v11,12, 10v2,9-20, 12v5,12, 13v1-4, etc. Eph 6v10-20, James 4v7-10, 1Pet 5v5-11. etc. Those who refuse to seek God's power for fear of receiving some false spirit, have in reality already been defeated by Satan, and have shown a lack of faith in God's ability to care for His children. Satan kept Israel out of Canaan through fear and unbelief; they could not trust God to look after them. Indeed, the Scriptures reveal that it has always been those who have failed to seek God for His blessing and spiritual gifts, who have been influenced by evil spirits. Heb 3 and 4.

Hey, well 80% is progress!

The example I used was from the perspective of a new believer, not my own perspective. My faith is solid, and was before I experienced anything miraculous. However, the miraculous events that I have experienced confirm what I already knew from Scripture.

All of the gifts discussed in 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, and Romans are for this life. We will have no need of prophecy, tongues, healing, teaching, administration, helps, apostles, etc. in the eternal kingdom. Using physical needs as examples only puts the whole issue into practical terms.

BTW, I have no time for Kenneth Copeland or the like, and I don't hold to the "prosperity gospel".