TONGUES false teaching.

SophieT · Dec 31, 2020

I don't think it is actually human nature to have something unique as most people are followers and not leaders. They want to conform to others so as to be accepted. You seem to be stuck on perceiving others as showing off. Are you perhaps desiring what others have and if they have what you want, it is considered showing off by you? (I don't even mean tongues here either) We need to be careful we do not hide behind our own wrong motives and then blame those wrong thoughts on others.

How are tongues unique to one person? Do you suppose Peter was showing off? Maybe Paul?

About the Pastor's wife. Have you personally spoken to her and has she told you that she feels ignored and desires to have attention?

If not, are you gossiping about her? Or did you decide that all on your own? Are you a counsellor that the Pastor's wife has confided these things to you?

You know, unless you approach what scripture states from a perspective of being open to what is actually written, it seems you are going to stick with your own narrative. Sadly, that appears to include the Pastor's wife, whom, it would seem, you look upon with disdain.

Do you know why the Holy Spirit was given to indwell believers? Perhaps start there. Use scripture to find the answer to that one and maybe you might begin to understand why it is so important.

God has determined to give the gifts. YOU nor I, do not decide whether or not tongues are valid. There is actually a number of very good reasons to have the gift of tongues. However, if you insist your reasoning overrides any biblical instruction, then that is how you will continue.

Again, I have no desire to convince anyone to speak in tongues. If I had a desire, it would be for people to receive proper instruction and that from SCRIPTURE.

Lisamn · Dec 31, 2020

SophieT said:

I am not talking about in the day of the apostles but in our day where people are all about me. Isn’t that what scripture says though? In the last days people will be lovers of self. People trying to influence their own style to show they have something more than others that can be sold. I think it is human nature to want to have something special to themselves. And I think that speaking in tongues or if you say you have visions or dream dreams helps you to stand out among the rest of us Christians..somehow makes you a special Christian. I think that is totally plausible.

Like I said..I have often thought about the pastors wife. I don’t believe I am gossiping about her..I have not brought up her name or church. Like I said..I have always wondered about her speaking in tongues and when someone brought up they thought it was women who do this more..I thought of her as an example. That’s it.

But don’t you think if say everyone in church speaks or understands english..then there’s really no reason for anyone to speak in tongues?

SophieT · Dec 31, 2020

Lisamn said:

I am not talking about in the day of the apostles but in our day where people are all about me. Isn’t that what scripture says though? In the last days people will be lovers of self. People trying to influence their own style to show they have something more than others that can be sold. I think it is human nature to want to have something special to themselves. And I think that speaking in tongues or if you say you have visions or dream dreams helps you to stand out among the rest of us Christians..somehow makes you a special Christian. I think that is totally plausible.

Like I said..I have often thought about the pastors wife. I don’t believe I am gossiping about her..I have not brought up her name or church. Like I said..I have always wondered about her speaking in tongues and when someone brought up they thought it was women who do this more..I thought of her as an example. That’s it.

But don’t you think if say everyone in church speaks or understands english..then there’s really no reason for anyone to speak in tongues?

Thanks for the exchange. I am not here to convince anyone of anything.

Nehemiah6 · Dec 31, 2020

Lisamn said:

Actually tongues creates two classes of Christians: (1) those who have spoken in tongues are deemed to be "Spirit-filled" and (2) those who do not speak in tongues are deemed to be second-class Christians.

This was the problem which Paul was addressing within the Corinthian church (which was deemed to be carnal and childish by him). Everyone wanted to speak in tongues, so Paul said that if the whole church was speaking in tongues, a visitor would think that they were all mad.

Lisamn · Dec 31, 2020

Nehemiah6 said:

Actually tongues creates two classes of Christians: (1) those who have spoken in tongues are deemed to be "Spirit-filled" and (2) those who do not speak in tongues are deemed to be second-class Christians.

This was the problem which Paul was addressing within the Corinthian church (which was deemed to be carnal and childish by him). Everyone wanted to speak in tongues, so Paul said that if the whole church was speaking in tongues, a visitor would think that they were all mad.

So..nothing new under the sun.

Dino246 · Dec 31, 2020

Lisamn said:

Your question is rooted in the assumption that "tongues" merely means "other human languages that people have learned". I contest that it cannot mean that. "Other languages", yes, absolutely. "Learned"; absolutely not. For clarity, I will put the word "languages" in place of "tongues" in the following quote:

1 Corinthians 12 (NASB):
4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. 7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of languages, and to another the interpretation of languages. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

This sets the context; Paul is talking about Spirit-given abilities, not naturally-learned abilities. Nobody "learns" how to work miracles. Nobody "learns" how to prophesy. Nobody "learns" how to heal. They are all supernatural manifestations. In the same way, "languages" and "interpretation of languages" in this context are supernatural. (For the record, people can learn how to handle a manifestation, but not how to generate one.)

The nature of this context is reinforced in verse 14:2, where Paul says the following: "For the one who speaks in a language does not speak to people, but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries." A person who is merely speaking a foreign language is not "speaking mysteries in his spirit".

Finally, in vs. 14:13-19, Paul says, "Therefore, one who speaks in a language is to pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a language, my spirit prays, but my mind is unproductive. 15 What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit, but I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit, but I will sing with the mind also. 16 For otherwise, if you bless God in the spirit only, how will the one who occupies the place of the outsider know to say the “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you are saying? 17 For you are giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not edified. 18 I thank God, I speak in languages more than you all; 19 nevertheless, in church I prefer to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a language."

How is it that a person merely speaking a foreign language is not using their mind? If Paul is praying in another language, is his spirit active but his mind inactive? That just doesn't make sense. Further, one does not have to be a Christian to learn multiple languages. If "speaking in tongues" is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit, how would non-Christians (ie. those without the Holy Spirit) be able to do so?

For these reasons, I believe that "speaking in tongues" is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit, and not merely speaking a learned language that happens to be "foreign" to the local congregation. Also, interpretation of tongues is not merely the ability to translate from a foreign language to the local language, which anyone who knows both languages could do without any particular help from the Holy Spirit.

Dino246 · Dec 31, 2020

Nehemiah6 said:

"Tongues" does no such thing, though poorly-educated people might. Those who rightly understand the gifts of the Spirit don't make such distinctions, because they know what 1 Coninthians 12:30 teaches.

Lisamn · Dec 31, 2020

Dino246 said:

What do you think speaking in tongues is supposed to do then? Give a new revelation?

Did the Bible say that when people started speaking in tongues that others around them knew what they were saying? Looks like it was languages everyone knew...

Acts‬ ‭2:1-12‬
When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance. Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven. And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language. They were amazed and astonished, saying, “Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born? Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs—we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God.” And they all continued in amazement and great perplexity, saying to one another, “What does this mean?”
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Lisamn · Dec 31, 2020

Dino246 said:

What does it teach?

Scribe · Dec 31, 2020

Lisamn said:

@ewq1938 thinks speaking in tongues is speaking in French that you learned in High School, No Holy Spirit required and no gift. He thinks that interpret means to Translate from French to English because you are bilingual. You don't even need to be saved. His interpretation is so far off topic he is not able to understand the subject.

Paul could have just said "If there is no interpreter don't speak in tongues" But he says "Let him SPEAK (in tongues) to himself and to God" which paints a different picture then just DONT SPEAK.

Lisamn · Dec 31, 2020

Scribe said:

If you’re speaking to yourself and God you don’t need an interpreter.

What do you think of these verses? Sounds like the Holy Spirit was providing other people with interpretation to scripture through speaking tongues people knew.

Acts‬ ‭2:1-12‬
When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance. Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven. And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language. They were amazed and astonished, saying, “Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born? Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs—we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God.” And they all continued in amazement and great perplexity, saying to one another, “What does this mean?”

SophieT · Dec 31, 2020

Nehemiah6 said:

The problem was the misuse of tongues. If Paul said that not everyone speaks in tongues, how can you so badly misrepresent what the Bible states? You have distorted the actual passage and since someone here does not seem to want to check things for themself, you see an opportunity to lead them away into your own misinterpretation.

Paul never tells the Corinthians to stop the use of tongues. He addresses the problem and advises the proper use of tongues.

You do not include any scripture in your post because if you did, it would say something different that what you are saying.

Tongues was not the only thing addressed by Paul. However, unlike the man sleeping with his father's wife, whom Paul said to put out of the congregation, Paul does not tell anyone to stop with tongues. He says please go ahead but this is how it should be employed.

If there are classes of Christians, it would be the cessationists who push that narrative.

Scribe · Dec 31, 2020

Lisamn said:

They heard them speak the wonderful works of God. This is all we know about what they understood them to be saying.
Now later we have accounts where there were no one hearing them in their own language. They did not know what they were saying except one account says they were also prophesying.
Then we have Paul explaining to them this manifestation of speaking and a gift of interpretation which is something just then explained. We don't see it anywhere else.

Also Paul said in 1 Cor 14:14 that when he spoke in tongues his understanding was unfruitful. And then he says he would do it anyway, because his spirit was praying. Then he says he would sing in tongues also. Something not mentioned in Acts.
So we see how we can get more details from 1 Cor 14 than just Acts alone as it never mentions singing in tongues but Paul said that he did so. (even F.F. Bruce a world renown NONpentecostal theologian embraced by the Baptists and many other nonpentecostals as a most excellent interpreter of Greek and hermeneutics says that Paul is talking about singing in tongues here)

Now he had been praying and speaking in tongues for 20 years (Ananias laid hands on him to receive the Holy Ghost 20 years before he wrote 1 cor 14) and so in 20 years he still did not know what language he was speaking.
He spoke in tongues more than them all and they were doing it a lot so it means that after 20 years of all that praying and speaking in tongues that he would have had someone recognize the language and told him what he was saying but his understanding was still unfruitful and he had not picked up on any identifiable words even after interpretations had been given over 20 years.

This is strong evidence that his speaking in tongues and praying in tongues is what we see today. No difference.

Dino246 · Dec 31, 2020

Lisamn said:

"All do not have the gifts of healing, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?

Paul is using rhetorical questions, and the implied answer to each is "No". No particular gift is given to every Christian, therefore only some are given "tongues", and those who aren't are not inferior to those who are.

Dino246 · Dec 31, 2020

Lisamn said:

At Pentecost, members of the assembled crowd recognized their own "home" languages being spoken by the disciples as the latter declared the mighty deeds of God. Nothing states or implies that there was any translation or interpretation going on. Also, nothing in the text states or implies that this event was normative; it simply was. The Holy Spirit used the "wonder" of the disciples speaking in unlearned languages to get the people's attention. He then used Peter to preach an impacting sermon and drew 3000 of the people to Jesus that day.

Lisamn · Dec 31, 2020

Scribe said:

I’m not sure about that. I’m not sure of the point of speaking in tongues today.

Lisamn · Dec 31, 2020

Dino246 said:

I’m just saying that people are supposed to be able to interpret what someone speaking in tongues is saying.

Dino246 said:

Is there a need for tongues now?

Scribe · Dec 31, 2020

Nehemiah6 said:

I agree with you about the Corinthians, there was probably some of that going on.

However the belief that these gifts are available and asking for and receiving them should not equate to suggesting that one who believes this believes that those who don't are second class Christians.

If you are a preacher and you pray that you would be empowered by the Spirit in the delivery of your message are you not expecting that to happen?
If another preacher does not pray and are not very effective do we do them disrespect if we tell them the benefits of praying for the Spirit to empower them?

If they say, "you just think you are a better christian than me because you have the empowerment of the Spirit when you preach and I don't" you would think they were being impetuous. But you would not stop praying for the Spirit's empowerment.

Maybe another example could be used, but the point is that we believe that our ministry will be more effective if we pray than if we don't pray. It is not elitism to suggest to others that their ministry will be more effective if they pray.

Operating in the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the empowering of the Holy Spirit and moving with God in these things that He has ordained for His Church is not a salvation issue.

Do I think I experience more benefits by praying in tongues than someone who does not believe in this gift? Yes Of course I do.

Does that mean I am a better Christian? Of course not.

Does that mean I will have a more effective prayer ministry OF COURSE IT DOES.

Do I believe that people who do not believe in the gifts of tongues are missing out ABSOLUTELY. That does not mean I think I am better than them. But of course they are missing out. The Holy Spirit is offering a gift. Unless you receive that gift you are missing out on it.
Elitism has nothing to do with it. Stop feeling offended and jump in the pool. There is room enough for everyone!

Scribe · Dec 31, 2020

Lisamn said:

Paul said:
Let all things be done unto edifying. 27If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

There is still a need for that because it is EDIFYING

Paul said:
5I would that ye all spake with tongues, (he never changed his mind)
There is still a need for it

Paul said:
13Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
There is still a need for that

Pauls said:
13Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. 14For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also
There is still a need for that. Because it Edifies us.

There is more of a need for it today than there was in the 1st century. We need to pray like never before. Watch and Pray is the most repeated admonition about the coming of the Lord.
We all agree that we need to pray more in the light of his Coming and as we see things getting ready to come to a close.
If praying and watching is the order of the day how much more do we need a divine gift called praying in the spirit (tongues) like Paul said he did.

Oh yes! we do really, really need it. Pray that you may receive this gift and also that you may interpret. Pray also that you may prophesy. Pray also that you might be filled with the Holy Ghost to boldly preach the Gospel to everyone you come in contact with that supernatural empowering of the Holy Spirit.

37If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Dino246 · Dec 31, 2020

Lisamn said:

I balk at "supposed to". At Pentecost, they did understand because they had already learned the languages. In 1 Corinthians, Paul teaches that it is better when people understand what is being said, because they are thereby edified. Without interpretation, only the speaker is edified, though even that is a good thing.

Lisamn said:

One might ask that of any of the gifts. Is there a need for healing, prophecy, or miracles? That depends entirely on one's perspective. For the mother with a child dying of cancer, healing is needed, but for the person with a minor headache, an analgesic pill will suffice. For a father facing continued unemployment, prophetic exhortation and encouragement is needed, while for the person who exceeded his budget by $20, a little restraint will sort it. For a family facing unrighteous eviction, a miracle is needed, while the person with a flat tire in the rain might just need to get out and fix it.

I can think of situations where a message delivered in tongues and then interpreted would be beneficial, but I can't think of a "need" for it; the Holy Spirit might think otherwise. I can certainly think of many people who need to build themselves up in the faith (Jude 20).

TONGUES false teaching.

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