Matthew 6:14-15

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posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#41
Jul 31, 2013
37,773
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#41
John146 said:
You would conclude that forgiveness is conditional on forgiving others? Isn’t this a works based forgiveness?
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if one still has a heart that does not forgive others, have they really been converted?
 
K

KingdomBrat

Banned
#42
Oct 19, 2020
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#42
throughfaith said:
I knew a guy who prayed the Lords Prayer out loud every day without fail . As far as i know he still does . Is it bad ? no ,I don't see a problem. Is it required ? no of course not . Is it necessary? no. Is it biblical? no .
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I actually do not recite the entire Lord's Prayer. I merely just randomly talk to God. Some times I remember I should forgive someone, most of the times I don't. But somewhere in the prayer I submit my will. This is the most important factor I want. It means I want God to move in my life and to move like I knew when I was younger. But remembering the Lord's Prayer kept me remembering to submit my will. That's the importance for me.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#43
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#43
KingdomBrat said:
If you don't desire to forgive others and let God's Will overrule your will, then don't. I have no say in your Salvation nor your personal [Doctrine]. I personally follow those Words of the Lord's Prayer because if God forgave me then I surely owe it to others in return. And I do it because when I daily offer to God, not my will be done but let Your Will be done, I have just naturally wanted to offer forgiveness. It has nothing to do with the [Lord's Prayer], but everything to do with me submitting my will so His Will can be done.
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If only that was as far as it went . Thats none of my business how you worship the Lord . My point is about what is taught .
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#44
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#44
KingdomBrat said:
I actually do not recite the entire Lord's Prayer. I merely just randomly talk to God. Some times I remember I should forgive someone, most of the times I don't. But somewhere in the prayer I submit my will. This is the most important factor I want. It means I want God to move in my life and to move like I knew when I was younger. But remembering the Lord's Prayer kept me remembering to submit my will. That's the importance for me.
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I have no issue with this . like i said its your walk ,your relationship. But its what doctrines are taught is the issue.
 
K

KingdomBrat

Banned
#45
Oct 19, 2020
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#45
throughfaith said:
If only that was as far as it went . Thats none of my business how you worship the Lord . My point is about what is taught .
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Mine is from no [Doctrine]. One day I heard a conversation between ministers and theologians and I caught a key point concerning the Lord's Prayer and God's Will being done. I just not only put it to the test, but I also believed by telling God every day let His Will be done that eventually a change would happen. I would see things happen that could not have happened by my own will. And now, I feel better in every area of my life and feel God is in more control than I am.
 
K

KingdomBrat

Banned
#48
Oct 19, 2020
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#48
throughfaith said:
If your saved and its how you worship and relate to the Lord , its not my business and i don't trample on that.
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Honestly, for years many have prophesied over me and things never happened. And things should've happened but passed me by like a warm summer breeze. One day, I took the words I heard and combined them with something I had been thinking for awhile. Things weren't happening for me because I never got myself completely in God's Will. And this somehow just clicked for me. It helped me to remember to surrender. I wanted to. But I always put my will first. And this time I didn't and haven't since.
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#49
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
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#49
throughfaith said:
No more than the instruction on how to build the tabernacle. That is also the word of God . We need to read it and understand it still . The same with all the instructions and commands to the diciples , Israel ,Jews ect . Its not difficult to spot these . I know sometimes when we watched superman it was tempting to imagine we were superman.
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How to build the tabernacle, the work of the high priest, the sacrificial system, all of it was a shadow of Christ. Shadows never lie about what they are shadowing, our study of how to build the tabernacle tells us something more about Christ and the kingdom of the Lord.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#50
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#50
Blik said:
How to build the tabernacle, the work of the high priest, the sacrificial system, all of it was a shadow of Christ. Shadows never lie about what they are shadowing, our study of how to build the tabernacle tells us something more about Christ and the kingdom of the Lord.
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Yes thats my point . Its FOR us but its not TO us . The instructions are not directed at us to build the tabernacle. But the information is FOR us to understand.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#51
Jan 13, 2016
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#51
KingdomBrat said:
If you don't desire to forgive others and let God's Will overrule your will, then don't. I have no say in your Salvation nor your personal [Doctrine]. I personally follow those Words of the Lord's Prayer because if God forgave me then I surely owe it to others in return. And I do it because when I daily offer to God, not my will be done but let Your Will be done, I have just naturally wanted to offer forgiveness. It has nothing to do with the [Lord's Prayer], but everything to do with me submitting my will so His Will can be done.
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That‘s not what it says though. It literally says “if” you don’t forgive others the neither will you be forgiven. Forgiving others come before being forgiven, thus in this case, a condition of being forgiven.

The apostle Paul never makes such claim to the body of Christ.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#52
Jan 13, 2016
17,100
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#52
posthuman said:
if one still has a heart that does not forgive others, have they really been converted?
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But it’s not talking about having a heart to forgive others. That’s commentary stuff. It literally says, if you don’t do this, then you will not be forgiven, making being forgiven conditional first on forgiving others.
 
K

KingdomBrat

Banned
#53
Oct 19, 2020
723
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#53
John146 said:
That‘s not what it says though. It literally says “if” you don’t forgive others the neither will you be forgiven. Forgiving others come before being forgiven, thus in this case, a condition of being forgiven.

The apostle Paul never makes such claim to the body of Christ.
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Paul is not my Lord and Savior to begin with.
In fact, if what Paul wrote [never] made it to the New Testament, following the Words of God in the flesh is more than enough to be secure in my Salvation.
Paul just clarifies, he is not Gospel, that's what Christ's Words are.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#54
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#54
KingdomBrat said:
Paul is not my Lord and Savior to begin with.
In fact, if what Paul wrote [never] made it to the New Testament, following the Words of God in the flesh is more than enough to be secure in my Salvation.
Paul just clarifies, he is not Gospel, that's what Christ's Words are.
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KingdomBrat said:
Paul is not my Lord and Savior to begin with.
In fact, if what Paul wrote [never] made it to the New Testament, following the Words of God in the flesh is more than enough to be secure in my Salvation.
Paul just clarifies, he is not Gospel, that's what Christ's Words are.
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Thats as silly as saying they really didn't need to listen to Moses .
 
J

jb

Senior Member
#55
Feb 27, 2010
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#55
John146 said:
I do not believe the sermon on the mount is Christian doctrine...
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Denying that it's for the Christian is a rather infantile way of justifying your need to apply it to your life!

"Right oh (says he), lets just pick and choose what suits me!"
 
K

KingdomBrat

Banned
#56
Oct 19, 2020
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#56
throughfaith said:
Thats as silly as saying they really didn't need to listen to Moses .
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Yes, but the fact is once Yeshua fulfilled His Purpose on Earth and it was documented on paper, we had everything we needed to be [Saved]. What the Apostles and Disciples of the Apostles + half brothers of Yeshua add is [icing] on the cake.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#57
Aug 4, 2020
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#57
jb said:
Denying that it's for the Christian is a rather infantile way of justifying your need to apply it to your life!

"Right oh (says he), lets just pick and choose what suits me!"
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No he gave justification for his point .
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#58
Aug 4, 2020
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#58
KingdomBrat said:
Yes, but the fact is once Yeshua fulfilled His Purpose on Earth and it was documented on paper, we had everything we needed to be [Saved]. What the Apostles and Disciples of the Apostles + half brothers of Yeshua add is [icing] on the cake.
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People were saved through Paul's message prior to the completion of the scriptures. The Gospel of Grace . Which I have a suspicion you may not know ? Its Paul who is given the revelation by Jesus that s not revealed prior to Paul . So if you are ruling Paul's words your disobeying God just as if they would have done by ignoring moses . God has always used a spokesman. Paul being the primary to the Church .
 
p_rehbein

p_rehbein

Senior Member
#59
Sep 4, 2013
30,670
6,860
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#59
John146 said:
You would conclude that forgiveness is conditional on forgiving others? Isn’t this a works based forgiveness?
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No.

It is an act of obedience to Jesus. BECAUSE of our salvation, we OBEY Him! Those of us that love Him that is.

What it really does is upset the hypercrazynothingbutgrace people and the OSAS'ers and the Calvinists.

A better question would be:

"Why should God forgive us our sins? We who do not deserve His wondrous grace and mercy. We who live sinful, disgusting lives. Why should God forgive us our sins? Why would Jesus DIE for us even BEFORE we repent and turn to God? Why? ESPECIALLY when we do NOT forgive our brothers their sins against us?"

Obedience is NOT a WORK to EARN salvation. Obedience is what a true believer does BECAUSE they LOVE God and Jesus! Folks need to get over their dumb hang ups over obedience.

I tell you now..........Scripture says NO DISOBEDIENT person will receive eternal life IF THEY DIE in their disobedience.............
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#60
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#60
p_rehbein said:
No.

It is an act of obedience to Jesus. BECAUSE of our salvation, we OBEY Him! Those of us that love Him that is.

What it really does is upset the hypercrazynothingbutgrace people and the OSAS'ers and the Calvinists.

A better question would be:

"Why should God forgive us our sins? We who do not deserve His wondrous grace and mercy. We who live sinful, disgusting lives. Why should God forgive us our sins? Why would Jesus DIE for us even BEFORE we repent and turn to God? Why? ESPECIALLY when we do NOT forgive our brothers their sins against us?"

Obedience is NOT a WORK to EARN salvation. Obedience is what a true believer does BECAUSE they LOVE God and Jesus! Folks need to get over their dumb hang ups over obedience.

I tell you now..........Scripture says NO DISOBEDIENT person will receive eternal life IF THEY DIE in their disobedience.............
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Jesus obedience is what saves. Our one act of believing what he did is what saves .
 
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