Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

Revelation has 7 accounts of the end times in several chapters from different views. It is not chronological. Of course, the First Resurrection is AFTER the Tribulation. The Master cannot lie.

There are not any levels of Believers, only rewards for our works, and Jesus says narrow is the way, and few will find it. All I care about is being one of the ones who overcomes and endures to the end, so I won't be written out of the book of life. Whatever road He lays out for me, I will walk it.

Sorry, but I don't understand the rest of what you said. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Heartbreakingly, many pre-trib people have told me that verse is for the Jews who come to faith in Christ during the Tribulation. They don't think they are equal to the church saints and will be treated to God's Wrath, as lesser believers. They don't know The Father or The Son.

the first resurrection happens in this world before we die in the flesh it happens by faith

“For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:21-22,

note he speaks as of man is dead first and then is brought into life from death .

all have a sentence of death upon oir soul by Gods own decree first at creation , then in the law and then in prophecy concluding here as a sure statement of God

“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin;

and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:12‬ ‭

sin is death because God has always said it is from the very first to the very last the second death is the eternal judgement upon the souls of men and angels even Satan himself .

And this is the resurrection that pulls us out of hay final judgement of the dead

this resurrection Jesus offers in the gospel

after Jesus tells them of this resurrection from the death decreed upon all sinners souls ( not our physical death ) but the reference to the place of eternal
Judgement called the second death .

where he says whoever accepts his word and believes will not be condemned and “ has passed from death to life “

that excludes Christian believers in the gospel and his word which he says this again and again , but we pass from this group whining the end still will hear his word and rise to judgement

“For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:26-29‬ ‭KJV‬

that’s of course a reference to the last judgement group

“And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened:

and another book was opened, which is the book of life:

and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them:

and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.

This is the second death.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:12-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the book of life is the gospel and those who believe and are saved from the second death they are written in his book but it is based on belief of his gospel

“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
‭‭John‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬

notice how Jesus says things as of man is already dead when he comes ? And he’s offering a resurrection ? Even though your body dies if you believe you will live” and when you live and believe in me you will never die “

we all have to pass away from our flesh except those who are at the last who are changed . That’s the second resurrection the one of our bodies at the end. It’s about our entire soul being saved body and spirit spirit first and body in the end so there are two resurrections think spiritually in the nt

first our spirit is saved in this lifetime and then in the end because our soul was saved by Jesus we have a certain promise of an new eternal
Body which is the second resurrection one for the spirit by faith in the gospel the other a promise to come in the end

Pre-tribbers agree with that verse. These saints would be those who are coming to faith after the rapture.

Jesus said this:

Matthew 16:28
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus is not speaking to Christians in Mark 13........at all.
He is expanding on Daniel ch 9. And Daniel is not speaking to Christians either.

This is eschatology 101. The division between Israel and the Church.
Something so many in the Church today refuses to recognize.

Replacement theology, Amillennialism, Post-millennialism, Preterism.....all heresies of this present age. Most of it insinuates that the Church has replaced Israel in some way shape form or fashion.
It hasn't. Paul writes about this extensively in Ephesians, Romans......it's everywhere.

There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that Paul was in fact a pre-trib premillennial rapturist. He taught it and he was very clear about it. In terms of the Church.......unassailable doctrine IMO.

The Church is one and done. The first resurrection is the greater set of that subset. The Church stands alone and is utterly unique in all of redemptive history. The Church is unimaginably blessed. A fact which we can celebrate for all eternity.

Revelation 20's first resurrection is a large resurrection of people not small like the two prophets being resurrected in Revelation 11. The first resurrection also happens AFTER Christ returns while the two prophets rise before the second coming. The first resurrection of Revelation 20 is the first of two mass bodily resurrections. One is before the thousand years and one comes after it. This second resurrected is also massively larger than the first one because it is for all the unsaved dead.

Nonsense. We talk about that verse all the time. It's part of our end time eschatology. These are clearly the tribulation saints. Part of the first resurrection ultimately.

You must be a newbie because everyone understands what that verse means, where it fits how it fits.

It seems pretty apparent to me that you have not read my post at the link I supplied.


The word in your verse is PLURAL... [in the Grk] it says "MANY TRIBULATIONS".



["many," not every single one ever...]


The Olivet Discourse's "ye/you" is a "proleptic 'you'" (meaning, basically, 'all those in the future, of the same category'), referring to THOSE TO WHOM "the promised AND PROPHESIED *earthly* Millennial Kingdom was promised" (notice their specific Q of Him in Acts 1:6 after just having spent some "40 days" with the resurrected Christ speaking to them about that very thing, and which Question had to do with its TIMING (which is how Jesus frames His RESPONSE ALSO) not its NATURE (which they understood correctly);

Paul uses such a thing ("proleptic 'we/us'" etc) also when he speaks of "the Church which is His body" when saying "us" / "we" [etc] (referring to all those saved "in this present age [singular]" rather than merely, say, the "Thessalonians" or merely the "Corinthians" in his immediate audience, but rather "all those in the future, of the same category" ['proleptic']--So where he writes, in 1Thess1:10, "the One delivering US out from [ek] THE WRATH COMING," it is not referring merely to the first century "Thessalonians" in his immediate audience, but the category of "the Church which is His body" [ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"]--I think you grasp the concept, right?)



____________

Pre-tribbers do NOT deny that "the Church which is His body" [that's us] has been experiencing "persecutionS and tribulationS" [etc] ever since its existence on the earth, that is, THROUGHOUT its ENTIRE existence since the first century [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)]...

...we are not waiting for the future, specific, limited time-period [7-yr trib] in order to experience it.

Just NO.

Correct.

(and "HAPPY BIRTHDAY!" lol)


Scripture states, "Blessed and holy is the one HAVING A PART IN the resurrection, the first" (that is, "the resurrection OF LIFE"--not saying it only happens at one singular point in time only, for that would make 1Cor15:23's "[re: resurrection] but EACH [a word meaning, 'OF MORE THAN TWO'] in his own ORDER [/RANK]" to be only so much superfluous wording meaning nothing, really! (NOT TRUE )

Mhhmm (yup!) ... keep in mind also that:

--"I GO TO PREPARE a place for you"

is distinct from

--"come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom HAVING BEEN PREPARED for you FROM ["apo"; not "PRO" said of others elsewhere] the foundation of the world"



...see the distinction here?

Not much I can do with that unintelligible incoherent word salad.

You really have an aversion to its saying "until the TIMES [PLURAL] of," don't you.

Say whaaaaaat? That's crazy talk right there. Makes no sense at all.

You don't even need to dig into the Greek to figure that one out. It's right there in the NKJV...

“whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."

The great tribulation saints are a different group from the church, which are introduced in Rev.7:9-17 as a group which no man can count from every nation, people, tribe and language, which would make them Gentiles. These are those who will have become believers after the church has been caught up and during the time of God's wrath. They will be exposed to God's wrath simply because they are on the earth during that time. The nation Israel will also be on the earth during the time of God's wrath, as well as the 144,000.

These saints during the time of God's wrath, are those who will keep the testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who will be exposed to the beast, his image and his mark.

"Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who remains awake and clothed, so that he will not go naked and let his shame be exposed.”

If we look at the verse above and as explained in the previous post, 'blessed is the one who remains awake and clothed' would be speaking to those who are believers, not unbelievers. In order to remain awake, one would already have to be awake. This is not describing an unbeliever, but one who is already having faith. In addition, why would Jesus be giving a warning to those who would not be reading His word? They wouldn't see it nor would they care!. But those saints who are on the earth during that time would see the Lord's warning.

After the church has been gathered, there will people who will become believers on the earth during the time of God's wrath. Many of them will be killed by the beast. Those who die will be resurrected after God's wrath and when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, as described in Rev.20:4-6. This is one of the stages of the first resurrection which will be of the saints who died during the tribulation period, as described below.

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

These saints will be exposed to God's wrath simply because they will be on the earth during that time. We know this from the following:

"‘Never again will they hunger, and never will they thirst; nor will the sun beat down upon them, nor any scorching heat.’

Never hunger = this is indicative of the 3rd seal rider on the black horse which represents world-wide famine, not to mention all the other plagues which will cause famine during that time

Never will they thirst = indicative of the 3rd trumpet where a third of the rivers and springs of water are contaminated killing many, as well as the 1st and 2nd bowl where the seas and fresh water are turned into literal blood.

Nor will the sun beat down upon them, nor any scorching heat. = this is in reference to where the angel pours the 4th bowl judgment upon the sun where it is given power to scorch the inhabitants of the earth with fire, searing them with intense heat.

This demonstrates that these saints will be exposed to God's wrath simply they are on the earth during that time period.

Yet, pre-trib folks cannot [seem to] bring themselves to believe or understand that that is what Jesus is referring to when He called it "great tribulation"...

Remember - we call it '[The] Great Tribulation' - capital letters included.

Jesus simply said "[For then shall be] great tribulation"...

He also mentioned some associated characteristics - but, He did not define it as an 'event' in the same sense that we have labeled it and like to talk about it.

What Jesus simply called "great tribulation" has been happening since 70 A.D.

It is still happening.

The worst is yet to come.

It will end at some future time.

Why can pre-trib folks not bring themselves to see this?

Oh yeah - that whole 7-year thing - which is a misinterpretation of scripture - which their entire eschatology is wrapped tightly around...

Not so, and I've explained why in many past posts:

--Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / Lk21:8-11 are ALL referring to "the beginning of birth PANGS" [SAME ITEMS / SAME TIME!!] (even tho the Lk passage doesn't LABEL it thus)

--THEN Lk21:12 says, "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE" ("BEFORE ALL" the beginning of birth PANGS just described in vv.8-11) BEFORE ALL THAT the NEXT SECTION [70ad events] MUST HAPPEN *FIRST* (BEFORE the BoBPs!) -- so the 70ad events come FIRST in the SEQUENCE

--the beginning of birth pangs are parallel [EQUIVALENT TO] the SEALS of Rev6 (coming AFTER the 70ad events!! ^ )... and Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 says these are a part of the "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (not over the course of some 2000 yrs!)

--Matt24 STARTS OUT with THAT SECTION (the BoBPs... which come AFTER the 70ad events [and not IMMEDIATELY after!])



--THEN Matt24:15,21 ("GREAT tribulation") comes AFTER THOSE...

--etc...



These SEQUENCE issues totally NEGATE the idea of a "2000-yr GREAT tribulation" time spans!

I believe we actually agree on more of this than you realize.

Please see both tables on this web page and compare:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Olivet_Discourse.html

Pay close attention to the comments columns in both tables.

^ Perhaps... let's see...

I'm saying that "Lk21:12-24a/b[/__]" (the 70ad events) [coming BEFORE ALL the BoBPs] INCLUDES the part about "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations" [like Jesus spoke of in Lk19:42-44, and Matt22:7, for example], which is a very lengthy time-period (and corresponds with Dan9:26b's "desolaTIONS [PLURAL] are determined"--PLURAL [the PLURAL of these also INCLUDES the LATER AOD [A-singular, of D-singular... but this particular ONE is governed by other texts with its timing--When Jesus speaks of AOD [SINGULAR] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, that refers back to Dan12:11 and THAT chpt provides TIME issues and says that Daniel himself will (after having rested IN DEATH) "STAND IN THY LOT at the END of the days--at the END of the days referred to in THAT CONTEXT, i.e. at the END of the far-future trib years spoken of IN THAT CONTEXT--chpt12! (associated with the "AOD [SINGULAR]" that Jesus specifically references!])])



--so in the 70ad events [found ONLY in Lk21:12-24a/b of the Olivet Discourse] the results are "and they shall be led away captive INTO ALL THE NATIONS" (i.e. SCATTERED);

--but the end-results of [things following the AOD (singular)] is the EXACT OPPOSITE OUTCOME, because (for one reason) Matt24:29-31 is parallel to Isaiah 27:12-13 at the "GREAT trumpet" [see those two verses in Isa27, which say...(see quoted below)] that the elect (meaning, the [far-future] BELIEVING REMNANT of ISRAEL) will be GATHERED (from the extremities--where they were SCATTERED) INTO ONE PLACE upon the earth (i.e. TO JERUSALEM!!)--the EXACT OPPOSITE OUTCOME (from the above-entry)



Isaiah 27:12-13 [ = Matt24:29-31] -
12 In that day the LORD will thresh from the flowing Euphratesd to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, O Israelites, will be gathered one by one [<--distinct from how WE will be!!] 13 And in that day a great trumpet [see Matt24:29-31] will sound, and those who were perishing in Assyria will come forth with those who were exiles in Egypt [as STILL-LIVING persons at the time being referenced]. And they will worship the LORD in the holy mountain AT JERUSALEM. [same as Isaiah 24:[21-]23 and same as Dan7:27 and same as...(etc, etc)]

^Most of that seems okay; however, I think you got off-track with the "LATER" AoD.

To understand the 'AoD' reference in the Matthew and Mark accounts of the Olivet Discourse, you must understand the parenthetical statements.

The Jews understood it perfectly - and got out of Jerusalem when they saw the 'signs' that Jesus told them about.