Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

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Truth7t7

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TheDivineWatermark said:
I doubt this post will show up correctly (the way I intend for it to come across--since everyone's screens are different), but I'll try this:


l----SEALs----l
..........................l--TRUM.PETs--l
........................................................l---VIALs---l (the "6th Vial" is "that the way... might be prepared"--re: Armageddon time-slot, Rev16:12)

...............................................................................l<---His Second Coming to the earth point in time (at the end of the Vials)





[the " .P " in the middle of the "Trumpets" word, represents/marks the MID-trib point... at the "5th Trumpet/1st Woe unto the earth"... Thus, there is still much time remaining from the point in time when the "7th Trumpet" has sounded, till the end of trib]
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I disagree, the 7th Vial and Trump are parallel teachings of the same event, The second coming, end of this world

(It Is Done) The End!

Revelation 16:16-17KJV
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

(The Mystery Of God Is Finished) The End!

Revelation 10:7KJV
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 11:15KJV
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
 
Lucy-Pevensie

Lucy-Pevensie

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cv5 said:
Again, your failure to fully comprehend the distinctiveness BETWEEN the Church and Israel is the cause for your stumbling.
There are "hints" and patterns of the Church in the OT. Rare, but there IMO. The entire Book of Ruth is an analogy of the plan of Redemption.

Boaz.......goel kinsman redeemer (type of Christ)
Naomi....Israel who thru Boaz redeems her LAND
Ruth.....the Church who learns of Boaz thru Naomi
Ruth at the feet of Boaz during the threshing floor scene. The Church saved from the time of wrath, being accepted for marriage by the Son.

However, the FULLNESS of the revelation of the mystery of the Church is not known until Paul expresses it. That being the Church is the gentile Bride, that we are gifted PERMANENTLY with the indwelling arrabon of the Spirit, furthermore that the mantle of Mediator and the commission of preaching the TRUTH falls to the Church. No Israelite that is NOT CONVERTED preaches the truth. It is impossible.

God dramatically SWITCHES GEARS during the 70th week. Church is Raptured. Gods wrath falls upon the earth as gentiles are judged and Jacob is cast into tribulation. Israel is RE-COMMMISSIONED to preach via the Two Witnesses and the 144,000. ONLY the 144,000 (and Two Witnesses for a time) are sealed and protected from harm. Some (untold millions) gentiles and Jews convert during that time. Death for converts is certain. Only the return of Jesus Messiah prevents all Tribulation Saints from being killed, and all of Israel being wiped out.

None of that pertains to the Church. None. And NO prophecy of the 70th week or the Time of Jacobs Trouble affects the Church in the least.
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I'm not failing to understand.
You are trying to school me in strict Dispensationalism.
Been there. Done that. Have the t-shirt.

I should have accepted many pages ago that the thread really isn't about lesser know rapture verses.
But about sustaining pre tribulation theories.

We disagree & I'll have to leave it at that.
 
cv5

cv5

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Lucy-Pevensie said:
I don't have any confusion about trumpets thanks.
The Bible clearly states that the resurrection happens at the last trumpet.
The 7th trumpet, the trumpet that blows with the shout & loud command of the victorious returning King Messiah.
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Actually.....no. The Trumpet angels have nothing whatsoever to do with Assembly, Rapture or the proclamation of the moment of the SC. These are idiomatic Trumpet judgments of increasing wrath.

Rev 15:2
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

How can these Saints already be in heaven (evidently resurrected) in Rev 15:2 when there are 7 bowls of wrath yet to be unleashed? We have to wait until Rev 19:11 for Christ to arrive. So they are awfully early.
And more....the Beast and FP are still waging war against the Saints. Not only that, Babylon is still in business. None of their final destruction in judgment has begun....quite the contrary. The battle of Armageddon is yet future. Probably many months away.

No....there is no reason to believe that the Rapture of the Church INSTANTANEOUSLY, ALL AT ONCE at the moment of the return of Jesus Messiah is noted anywhere in the book of Revelation. In fact the term Church is not noted anywhere in Revelation after Chapter 3.
 
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Truth7t7

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cv5 said:
Actually.....no. The Trumpet angels have nothing whatsoever to do with Assembly, Rapture or the proclamation of the moment of the SC. These are idiomatic Trumpet judgments of increasing wrath.

Rev 15:2
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

How can these Saints already be in heaven (evidently resurrected) in Rev 15:2 when there are 7 bowls of wrath yet to be unleashed? We have to wait until Rev 19:11 for Christ to arrive. So they are awfully early.
And more....the Beast and FP are still waging war against the Saints. Not only that, Babylon is still in business. None of their final destruction in judgment has begun....quite the contrary. The battle of Armageddon is yet future. Probably many months away.

No....there is no reason to believe that the Rapture of the Church INSTANTANEOUSLY, ALL AT ONCE at the moment of the return of Jesus Messiah is noted anywhere in the book of Revelation. In fact the term Church is not noted anywhere in Revelation after Chapter 3.
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The main scripture used by supporters of the (Pre-Trib) Rapture is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a Pre-Trib rapture, Don't Be Deceived!

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 11:23-24 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:23-24KJV
23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
 
cv5

cv5

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Lucy-Pevensie said:
Is there no one in heaven NOW?

The Lord could return in blazing glory with ten thousands of his holy ones tonight if he wanted to.
Nothing in the text requires us to insert a 7-year sojurn in heaven between gatherings & returns.

BTW Jude 1:4 & The Book of Enoch are both referring back the original prophecy made by Moses and built on by the later prophets.
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Disagree. That Enoch quote is genuine and predates the Flood. How in the world can a literal living Enoch quote Moses?

Furthermore, the Lord does not appear on a white horse or with armies when he meets the Church in the air. And he can come at any moment......not after precisely 84 months after the man of sin is revealed.
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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cv5 said:
In fact the term Church is not noted anywhere in Revelation after Chapter 3.
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To go along with your point, may the readers consider the following:

After we see this stated 7x "unto the churches" in

Revelation [2:7,11,17,29; 3:6,13] 3:22 [7x total]

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."



...the only other time we see something similar said, is in

Revelation 13:9

"If any man have an ear, let him hear." [around mid-trib in the chronology]



... which doesn't here add the oft-repeated phrase "what the Spirit saith unto the churches" (like was said in "the things WHICH ARE" section of Revelation).


Why is that?
 
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Truth7t7

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cv5 said:
Furthermore, the Lord does not appear on a white horse or with armies when he meets the Church in the air. And he can come at any moment......not after precisely 84 months after the man of sin is revealed.
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cv5: The Lord, He Can Come At Any Moment?

Your claim is false, there are (Two) prerequisites to the coming of the Lord (Fact)

1.) The Apostasy Of The Church

2.) The Man Of Sin/Antichrist Revealed

(Let No Man Deceive You By Any Means)

2 Thessalonians 2:1-5KJV
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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^ verse 2 says, "[purporting that] the day of the Lord *is present* [perfect indicative; G1764]"


--"the day of the Lord" is something entirely "earthly-located"

--by contrast, the Subject of v.1 is entirely not "earthly-located" at all



IOW, they are speaking of distinct items.
 
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Truth7t7

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TheDivineWatermark said:
^ verse 2 says, "[purporting that] the day of the Lord *is present* [perfect indicative; G1764]"


--"the day of the Lord" is something entirely "earthly-located"

--by contrast, the Subject of v.1 is entirely not "earthly-located" at all



IOW, they are speaking of distinct items.
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Who are you responding to, try quoting a poster, that would be a good start, and of great help :)
 
ewq1938

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saintrose said:
I'm puzzled as to why so many have followed "Rapture" teaching when there is nothing in the Bible about the Rapture.
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The rapture was spoken by Paul using the Greek word that means rapture, "harpazo".
 
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Truth7t7

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ewq1938 said:
The rapture was spoken by Paul using the Greek word that means rapture, "harpazo".
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The Greek Word (Harpazo) is translated as (Caught Up) in my KJV translation, and that's what I use to identify their term (Rapture)

1 Thessalonians 4:17KJV
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
 
ewq1938

ewq1938

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Absolutely said:
Factor in the AC killing all refusing the mark
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Scripture does not say refusal of the mark leads to death. You are confusing two different things:

Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Refusing to worship the image of the beast is a death penalty.


Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Refusing the mark isn't a death penalty. The only penalty is not being able to buy and sell which means no participation in the official economy. That would make life very hard but isn't something you will be killed for.

Here are people who refused the mark and survived:

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Some Christians will survive and be changed and raptured after the Great Tribulation has ended, at the second coming. People who have taken the mark do not qualify to be raptured. Instead, the marked will suffer the wrath of God in the 7 vials.
 
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Truth7t7

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ewq1938 said:
Scripture does not say refusal of the mark leads to death. You are confusing two different things:

Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Refusing to worship the image of the beast is a death penalty.


Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Refusing the mark isn't a death penalty. The only penalty is not being able to buy and sell which means no participation in the official economy. That would make life very hard but isn't something you will be killed for.

Here are people who refused the mark and survived:

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Some Christians will survive and be changed and raptured after the Great Tribulation has ended, at the second coming. People who have taken the mark do not qualify to be raptured. Instead, the marked will suffer the wrath of God in the 7 vials.
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Should Not Shall, It Will Be His Desire, Not A Mandate.

Revelation 13:15KJV
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
 
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Truth7t7

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ewq1938 said:
Scripture does not say refusal of the mark leads to death. You are confusing two different things:

Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Refusing to worship the image of the beast is a death penalty.


Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Refusing the mark isn't a death penalty. The only penalty is not being able to buy and sell which means no participation in the official economy. That would make life very hard but isn't something you will be killed for.

Here are people who refused the mark and survived:

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Some Christians will survive and be changed and raptured after the Great Tribulation has ended, at the second coming. People who have taken the mark do not qualify to be raptured. Instead, the marked will suffer the wrath of God in the 7 vials.
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The Church Is Present On Earth During The Tribulation As Seen Below.

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Absolutely said:
Yes
That, plus the huge investment they have in a poorly thought out postrib rapture model.
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This is laughable. It's the pre-tribbers who have zero verses saying that Jesus returns to heaven with His resurrected/raptures saints.

But to ignore verses tells me everything.
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And that is the key. Pre-tribbers have zero verses that support their claims.

They still ignore our verses.
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There is nothing to ignore in "your verses". None of them say that Jesus returns to heaven (makes a U-turn) after resurrection and rapture.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Some (or many) among the pre-tribbers claim that since the Tribulation is NOT for the church, the book of Revelation is not applicable for the church.

This is easily refuted by the very words in Revelation, and in fact, form book-ends for the book.

Rev 1-
1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

Rev 22-
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Notice the parallels, by color.

The first 3 chapters are dedicated to NT churches. And 22:16 states clearly that "this testimony" given to John is "for the churches".
 
cv5

cv5

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TheDivineWatermark said:
^ verse 2 says, "[purporting that] the day of the Lord *is present* [perfect indicative; G1764]"


--"the day of the Lord" is something entirely "earthly-located"

--by contrast, the Subject of v.1 is entirely not "earthly-located" at all



IOW, they are speaking of distinct items.
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Very good point. I must remember to remember that distinction. Next time.
 
cv5

cv5

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Truth7t7 said:
The Church Is Present On Earth During The Tribulation As Seen Below.

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
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Speaking to future and Israelites.....
 
Absolutely

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ewq1938 said:
Scripture does not say refusal of the mark leads to death. You are confusing two different things:

Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Refusing to worship the image of the beast is a death penalty.


Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Refusing the mark isn't a death penalty. The only penalty is not being able to buy and sell which means no participation in the official economy. That would make life very hard but isn't something you will be killed for.

Here are people who refused the mark and survived:

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Some Christians will survive and be changed and raptured after the Great Tribulation has ended, at the second coming. People who have taken the mark do not qualify to be raptured. Instead, the marked will suffer the wrath of God in the 7 vials.
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Factor in the following:
It says" ALL TAKE THE MARK."

REV 20 They refused the mark and died
 
ewq1938

ewq1938

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Absolutely said:
Factor in the following:
It says" ALL TAKE THE MARK."

REV 20 They refused the mark and died
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They died from more than just that one thing, " the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands"


And others did not take the mark and lived.
 
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