Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

They are definitely in heaven in rev 14.
Re read it.
THAT IS HOW THEY ARE FIRSTFRUITS.
THAT IS HOW JESUS IS FIRSTFRUITS.

Firstfruits precedes main harvest.

Harvest is 3 or 4 parts depending on how "corners" and "gleaners" are counted.

There is no PURPOSE in leaving the 144k on earth.
...and they are not. They are in fact HARVESTED AS FIRSTFRUITS JEWS.

Thank you Jesus for your word.

"""And, again, I'm just saying, "WE / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" are NOT the "WHEAT harvest"""

We are the main harvest.
Main harvest comes AFTER firstfruits.
Firstfruits happened with Jesus and the patriarchs.
Main harvest is next.

There were 3 harvests
Wheat ,barley, grapes.

The Jews are the grapes.
...even though grain is mentioned.

Straying from the main structure or building blocks eventually ascribes transposed dynamics into the picture.

Any typology has to harmonize with the main structure.

Take the parable of the 10 virgins and what folks transpose into it

Take the ark, flood , noah, and judgement,with taking the ark into heaven,as an example.
Folks that need the "one taken/ left" to be wicked people have to butcher verses to make it fit.

Why?

Because they deviated from the KNOWN BUILDING BLOCKS.

IOW they NEED it to say something else.


...as you need the 144k to not be in heaven by rev 14....which is during the trib.

Jesus on a cloud taking main harvest Jews TO HEAVEN but leaving firstfruits on earth.

BTW the 144 k JEWS are not first anything if they stay on earth. They only become firstfruit HARVEST.

Let's read the first verse:

"1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads."

Are you going to argue that Mount Zion resides in heaven??

It still mentions Jesus ON Mount Zion with 144K with Him. How can you make such erroneous claims?

When Jesus returns to earth at the Second Advent, He glorifies ALL those who belong to Him (1 Cor 15:23) and NONE of them go to heaven.

You STILL have NOT shown from Scripture that Jesus ANY glorified believers back up to heaven.

Being thankful should mean to read it. You don't know the Word.

What??!! Please show the verse/context where the patriarchs are mentioned in regard to the resurrection.

You are just spiritualizing the Word. Or making everything mean something else.

Read Rev 14:1 for the truth.

What verse actually says this? You have STILL NOT shown any verse that says Jesus takes ANY glorified believers back to heaven.

No. I said, His "RESURRECTION" [definition: 'to stand again [after having died; 'to stand again' (on the earth)'; He did that]<--1Cor15:20 (connection) [are you looking these up? ] ;


note carefully: I didn't say the "connection" (to 1Cor15:20 re: His resurrection) was "ascension," as though those two words are defined identically the same (no!); I said He ALSO "ascended" that very day (ON the day Lev23:10-12 speaks of [same day as His "resurrection [from the dead]"--'on the morrow, following the sabbath'), because that's what He told MM (John 20:17), and later that same evening, told His disciples something distinct from what He had told her (and from what he had told her to 'SAY UNTO them').



You had mentioned about those in Lev23 just being about the feasts/festivals, for Israel... this is why I also mentioned about how I believe He was BORN on Tabernacles (John 1:14, and other reasons);
And... I didn't mention in those posts... what I've stated before about how His Triumphal Entry (<--to make it as simple as possible) took place on the same day that Exo12:3,5,[6] spoke of, regarding the "selection of the lamb" ('without blemish');
not to mention that this date was also the conclusion of the "69 Weeks [total]" (<--when He SAID the Lk19:41-44 thing re: Jerusalem / the city; and DID the Zech9:9 thing re: Jerusalem / the city [the Subject of the Dan9:24-27 prophecy]).


Hope that helps.




____________

Lev23:10 - [see the word for "firstfruit" here H7225 - From the same as ro'sh; the first, in place, time, order or rank ]

10“Speak to the Israelites and say, ‘When you enter the land that I am giving you and you reap its harvest, you are to bring to the priest a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest.

^ 1Cor15:23 - "[re: resurrection] But EACH is his own ORDER / RANK" ^

What I said was, that there are distinct "harvests" (both in nature and in Scripture)

What I said was (and you may disagree):

--that James 1:18 says "a KIND of firstfruit" / "a CERTAIN firstfruit" (indicating there's more that ONE kind of 'firstfruit,' just as Lev23 itself shows TWO DISTINCT 'firstfruit'--in Lev23:10 and Lev23:17);

--that 2Th2:13 (in some versions) brings together the 'ap' arche' word (of that verse) to say 'aparche' (<--'firstfruit'--which I believe is accurate); addressed to the Church which is His body (all those saved 'in this present age [singular]');

--that I see parallel wording between Lev23:17 (the SECOND of the TWO mentions of 'firstfruit' [<--THIS one pertaining to the 'WHEAT' harvest]) with Rev14:4 (re: the 144,000)

--that the "WHEAT harvest" pertains to what Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 (thus also Matt24-25 [see their Q in Matt24:3]) speaks with regard to, which is "the END [singular] of the AGE [singular]" (which "age" THEY were standing in, and speaking out from, at that point when they spoke of this; which is immediately followed by "the age [singular] to come" Matt12:32 [aka the earthly MK age], thus pertains also to the 7-yr trib yrs that WE [/the Church which is His body] will NOT BE IN; and which is NOT synonymous with "this present age [singular; that we are (now [post-Cross ]) standing in and speaking out from ]")

Well, fine if you want to say that, I won't argue too much... I just believe (as I've said in past posts) that Scripture (as I see it) deliberately tells us where THEY (the "many" who "arose") went that very day, in contrast to where Jesus was telling MM He would be going... the many "went into the holy city, and appeared unto many," whereas He did His "[active] I ASCEND" (per what He told MM in John 20:17); I believe "the many" are a type of who will ENTER the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age, as "resurrected [from the dead (resurrect--'to stand again'--on the earth)]" (saints only--like the OT saints, and the Trib saints who will have DIED in the Trib Rev20:4b and Rev6:9-10)


Again, I believe there are distinct "harvests"... with distinct "firstfruit"<--Lev23 shows TWO DISTINCT "firstfruit" (that's why I believe it to be so... and I showed their "connections").

The part I've bolded.
There is a very important purpose for them on earth. They have a function.

In any event they cannot be harmed because they are spiritually sealed.
They wouldn't require that if they weren't on earth. Harvesting doesn't have to mean 'taken to heaven'

Protected from the flying scorpions.
Before they went to heaven.

But they are firstfruits.
Harvested

Agreed!





[for the readers' reference, Post #1910: https://christianchat.com/threads/l...the-rapture-is-compelling.197095/post-4498616 ]

There is a lot more detail than that.

Not sure what's so "shocking" ( ), I've only said it about a billion times already in this thread. LOL





[glad we can agree on at least one point = ) ]

FreeGrace2 said:
Sorry, no. Where do you get the idea when He went to His Father after speaking to MM on THAT day, that is known as "first fruit"?
I asked a question. How is "no" an answer? I was quoting from your post.

So what is the big deal about "to stand again"? So what? The issue in resurrection isn't about standing again, but being changed into glorified bodies. When you keep capitalizing and bolding "resurrection" and bracketing and underlining "to stand again", my eyes begin to glaze over.

Please just get to your point.

I'm not seeing why or how any of these tidbits are significant or relevant.

And how is that important?

Not until is see any relevance/importance to the end times and His return to earth.

This verse is literally about when the Jews enter the promised land. That occurred a very long time ago.

You keep bringing up things that have no relevance/significance to end times events.

Why?

I'll be back either later tonight, or tomorrow... I've got some things I need to tend to atm...
... for now, I'm just going to leave here something I had planned to post many pages back, when it was being discussed, about Irenaeus... I've noticed something for years about how post-tribbers (etc) are reading this quote, but which (b/c of what else he says elsewhere) I do not believe they are interpreting correctly what he is saying, here:

[quoting Irenaeus]

"And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, 'There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.'(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”

--Irenaeus



--post-tribbers (etc) see him EQUATING the green and the blue [he isn't ]


--pre-tribbers (not that he was necessarily "pre-trib / pre-70th-Wk") are pointing out that he is MAKING A DISTINCTION (JUST AS WE "pre-tribbers" are!) BETWEEN "the Church [which is His body]" (all those saved "in this present age") and "the righteous" (who are the ones coming to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture"--that is, IN / DURING / WITHIN the trib years--i.e. "the righteous" in Matt13:43 / Matt25:[31-34]46)





It's like a mental block... when they read the words "the righteous" they automatically think "the Church [which is His body]" and declare, "SEE! Irenaeus said WE WILL BE HERE THEN"... No, he isn't saying that.

At least not here in THIS quote (and several others I've read, of his writings... where he seems to believe there are three levels of "destination" for believers [as in, levels of reward, type of thing]: Heaven, paradise [I think he said], and earth... )



I've seen people do this, for years, when reading this quote. = )




[same thing took place in one of my posts while back, in this very thread... I was talking about "the righteous"/the "BLESSED"/those who come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture," IN the TRIB years, but this was seemingly not recognized that I was saying this, by the poster/commenter... as far as I could tell, anyway)]

OK, you have identified the saved people during "this present age" (the Church) and "the righteous" (those who come to faith FOLLOWING the pre-trib rapture. What do you do with all those who came to faith in the Messiah BEFORE Jesus' First Advent? You have ignored them completely. Those were the saved people that Jesus visited in Hades right after His resurrection and took to heaven.

I don't see any need for such distinctions anyways. Salvation has always been by faith in the Messiah/Christ. Always.

The issue is clearly settled in 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

I know what the pre-tribbers will think. They view "when He comes" as the quiet secret pre-trib rapture, so they will simply assign "those who belong to Him" as the saved people during "this present age".

But that is clearly inappropriate. Who does belong to Jesus? EVERYONE who has placed their trust in Him alone to save them.

So that includes everyone in "Paradise" or "Abraham's Bosom", which was one of 3 compartments in Hades. These are the OT believers.

So that includes everyone from Christ's ascension in Acts 1 to the end of the Tribulation who believes in the Messiah.

So, there is NO practical distinction between OT believers, NT believers and Trib believers. All are saved by Christ alone.

And, as a converted post-tribber because of the fact that there are no verses that support a pre-trib rapture and a number of verses that plainly indicate that Christ's Second Coming is when the ONLY "gathering"/rapture takes place, when Christ returns in glory, everyone in history who has placed their faith in Christ for salvation will be glorified.

Absolutely! Because shortly After Rev 14:3 you have, God's Prophetic Purpose
of ev angel izing the world, preaching the Everlasting gospel {of The Kingdom?}
is Continued, in verse 6:

"And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the
everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth,
and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,"

Sounds absolutely like a perfect agreement with
CHRIST's Teaching To HIS people, Israel, on the earth!:

"And this {Everlasting?} gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all
the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."
(Matthew 24:14 KJB!)

How about ALL of them, not just "ANY":

"To the end HE may Stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness Before God,
even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ With All HIS saints."
(1 Thessalonians 3:13 KJB!)

Where Is HIS Father? On the earth, or On His Throne, In "Heaven"?

What a GLORIOUS Day That Will Be!

Many More verses: Body Of CHRIST "Does NOT" go to Heaven?
If that is Not enough, then we have this question for earthlings:

If ALL the saints are, At The Second Advent, raised from the dead,
and they and "the Remaining living" are Caught Up, "meet The LORD,
In the air," are glorified immortal/incorruptible to be as the angels,
and make a U-turn {new theology?}, back to the earth, then, who, pray tell,

"goes into the kingdom to Re-populate it for 1000 years"? Any verse?

FreeGrace2 said:
You have STILL NOT shown
Any verse that says Jesus takes ANY glorified believers back to heaven.
Nope. It says Christ comes with all His saints. Obviously meaning those already in heaven.

1 Thess 3:13 doesn't say that Jesus takes glorified believers back to heaven. That's the huge flaw in pre-trib theology.

Right! His SECOND Advent. The ONLY TIME He returns to earth.

You're arguing from silence. Again NO verses that say Jesus returns to heaven with glorified believers. None.

However, Acts 3:21 says that Jesus must remain in heaven until the times of restoration. If you want the lexicon source that supports this, just ask.

2 Thess 2:1 gives the order: Second Advent (coming of our Lord) and the "gathering". That's when Jesus brings with Him all the dead saints that are already in heaven, and with them meets all the living saints in the clouds and glorifies ALL of them, which is the FIRST resurrection.

Rev 20:5 describes the resurrection of Trib martyrs as the FIRST resurrection. Hm. Do you want to argue that there are @ FIRST resurrections?

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

So, who are "those who belong to Him"? Well, just EVERYONE in the human race who ever believed in Him for salvation.
That would include all OT saints, all NT saints, and all trib martyrs.

OK, now to answer your good question.

"who, pray tell, goes into the kingdom to Re-populate it for 1000 years"? Any verse?"

Given all the above, it is clear that all the unbelievers who survived the Trib will repopulate the earth. Which explains WHY there will even be another rebellion at the end of the 1,000 years of Christ' reign with a rod of iron, when Satan is loosened for a short time.

Rev 20 explains all about Satan. If believers repopulate the earth after the Trib, then WHY WHY WHY would any of them rebel against Christ at the end of the 1,000 years?

So the only reasonable explanation for the battle of Gog and Magog (Satan's rebellion) is that Christ is ruling unbelievers during the Millennium.

I'm happy to take questions.

Ok if Jesus is firstfruits and not taken to heaven how does that work out in the realm of purpose.?

Not sure what you are saying

I've posted about this...

--only "the righteous" ("BLESSED" / "saints" / believers) will ENTER the MK age--some as "resurrected ['to stand again' [on the earth]" because they died (and are "LIKE ANGELS"); but some as "still-living" in mortal bodies capable of reproducing/bearing children;

--[re: the still-living/mortal (saints) who ENTER the MK age] they go on to bear children and have grandchildren, and so on... but the ones born TO them and TO their children (etc) are not "BORN automatically RIGHTEOUS"; "death" will be much more rare, reserved only for the rebellious (not merely for those "born" and thereafter existing in the MK age); since they aren't "BORN automatically RIGHTEOUS," these are the ONLY ones who will be susceptible to "death" in the MK age... and at the END of the MK age, [meaning, their descendants] would be the ones who would be those whom Satan would "go out to deceive... to gather them to battle..." at that time




Bottom line... it's not the "saints" who ENTERED the MK age at the START of it who will at the END of it "rebel," but their descendants (those born to them and to their children and so forth, who are not "BORN automatically RIGHTEOUS"... who will be the only ones susceptible to "death" throughout the MK [which will be much more rare and reserved only for the rebellious])... it would be THESE at the END to whom this would pertain...