Was the Garden of Eden, literally Heaven on Earth? Was the Earth already fallen except for the Garden?

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2ndTimothyGroup

2ndTimothyGroup

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pittsburghjoe said:
I think the purpose of the Garden was to start humans that had a way to transmit their sins to the final Adam on the cross. God the Father isn't a fan of this fallen place, so gaining that knowledge was not something He wanted to do. For Jesus to have the sins for sacrifice, a different way to bear the sins was put in place.
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I like the way you think!

I would say, and I may be wrong, that the Garden of Eden [is], or was, the Promised Holy Land. Adam and Eve were kicked out, but the objective of the Bible is to restore the Children of God so that through a right relationship with the Lord, they will all spend eternity with Christ in Heaven. Abraham went through this experience himself . . .

Hebrews 11:8-10 NKJV - "By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as [in] a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God."

The Land of Canaan [is] the Promised Holy Land . . . here on earth:

Genesis 11:31 NKJV - "And Terah took his son Abram and his grandson Lot, the son of Haran, and his daughter-in-law Sarai, his son Abram's wife, and they went out with them from Ur of the Chaldeans to go to the land of Canaan; and they came to Haran and dwelt there."

The Lord has people dancing around and even in the Land of Canaan, the Promised Holy Land, even the Spiritual Land of Milk and Honey as it is in Heaven . . . but few recognize this. We've got to read our entire Bibles in a timeline, chronological fashion to see these things! :) And when we do . . . the Bible becomes alive like you may have never imagined!
 
pittsburghjoe

pittsburghjoe

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2ndTimothyGroup said:
I like the way you think!
The Land of Canaan [is] the Promised Holy Land . . . here on earth:
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That is fine ..the difference being, when the Garden was still a safe-zone, it didn't have death, decay, or entropy. I guess it can still be Holy even if it wasn't at the same level of safe.
 
pittsburghjoe

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Did Jesus become everyone on the cross? Is that only possible if He was already in everyone?
 
M

MattforJesus

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Yahcubs777 said:
I know enough.

You are literal to the core. If Man had sin nature he could not be with GOD. That flies in the face of the essence of your own belief system. Truly, this Gospel is separating the wheats from the tares.

Moses is the Law. And the proof he is not a Prophet is that GOD spoke to him audibly, not inaudibly as he does with the Prophets
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Deu 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face.

Moses was considered a prophet.

Jos 1:1 Now after the death of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass, that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' minister, saying,
Jos 1:2 Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, even to the children of Israel.

1Sa 3:4 That the LORD called Samuel: and he answered, Here am I.

1Sa 9:17 And when Samuel saw Saul, the LORD said unto him, Behold the man whom I spake to thee of! this same shall reign over my people.

Isa 8:5 The LORD spake also unto me again, saying,
Isa 8:6 Forasmuch as this people refuseth the waters of Shiloah that go softly, and rejoice in Rezin and Remaliah's son;
Isa 8:7 Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks:
Isa 8:8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.

Isa 8:11 For the LORD spake thus to me with a strong hand, and instructed me that I should not walk in the way of this people, saying,
Isa 8:12 Say ye not, A confederacy, to all them to whom this people shall say, A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid.

Isa 5:9 In mine ears said the LORD of hosts, Of a truth many houses shall be desolate, even great and fair, without inhabitant.

Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

Jer 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.

Jer 46:13 The word that the LORD spake to Jeremiah the prophet, how Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon should come and smite the land of Egypt.

Jer 1:7 But the LORD said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak.

Eze 11:5 And the Spirit of the LORD fell upon me, and said unto me, Speak; Thus saith the LORD; Thus have ye said, O house of Israel: for I know the things that come into your mind, every one of them.

Eze 44:5 And the LORD said unto me, Son of man, mark well, and behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears all that I say unto thee concerning all the ordinances of the house of the LORD, and all the laws thereof; and mark well the entering in of the house, with every going forth of the sanctuary.

Hos 1:2 The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.

Amo 7:8 And the LORD said unto me, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A plumbline. Then said the Lord, Behold, I will set a plumbline in the midst of my people Israel: I will not again pass by them any more:
Amo 7:9 And the high places of Isaac shall be desolate, and the sanctuaries of Israel shall be laid waste; and I will rise against the house of Jeroboam with the sword.

Zec 11:15 And the LORD said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd.
Zec 11:16 For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.

It appears that God spoke audibly to the prophets.

Deu 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face.

Exo 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exo 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
Exo 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
Exo 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

It appears that God spoke audibly to the prophets but Moses knew Him face to face and seen partial glory from the LORD.
 
2ndTimothyGroup

2ndTimothyGroup

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pittsburghjoe said:
Did Jesus become everyone on the cross? Is that only possible if He was already in everyone?
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No, I don't think so, however, He DID become the Curse for us.

Galatians 3:13 NKJV - "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed [is] everyone who hangs on a tree")

That Tree, by the Way, is the same Tree in the Garden of Eden.

Jesus did not become us, but He did "quicken together to Himself" our Sinful Natures.

Colossians 2:13 KJV - "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses . . ."

Above, the "uncircumcision of your flesh" is referring not to the foreskins of a man's phallus, for that is not what Jesus "quickened together to Himself" . . . that would be pretty nasty! So again, the "flesh" in this case, is not physical, but the Sinful State of Man (Sarx). The Work of Christ is to lift the fallen state of a person, or, the Curse that stems from Adam and Eve. There can be no Salvation if that Curse is not removed by Christ.

I'm beginning to think you know these answers. Are you playing with us?!?! :cool:
 
pittsburghjoe

pittsburghjoe

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2ndTimothyGroup said:
No, I don't think so, however, He DID become the Curse for us.

Galatians 3:13 NKJV - "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed [is] everyone who hangs on a tree")

That Tree, by the Way, is the same Tree in the Garden of Eden.

Jesus did not become us, but He did "quicken together to Himself" our Sinful Natures.

Colossians 2:13 KJV - "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses . . ."

Above, the "uncircumcision of your flesh" is referring not to the foreskins of a man's phallus, for that is not what Jesus "quickened together to Himself" . . . that would be pretty nasty! So again, the "flesh" in this case, is not physical, but the Sinful State of Man (Sarx). The Work of Christ is to lift the fallen state of a person, or, the Curse that stems from Adam and Eve. There can be no Salvation if that Curse is not removed by Christ.

I'm beginning to think you know these answers. Are you playing with us?!?! :cool:
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Why do we say He died for our sins if it was only for original sin? I thought it was about every sin ever committed.
 
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Yahcubs777

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MattforJesus said:
Deu 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face.

Moses was considered a prophet.

Jos 1:1 Now after the death of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass, that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' minister, saying,
Jos 1:2 Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, even to the children of Israel.

1Sa 3:4 That the LORD called Samuel: and he answered, Here am I.

1Sa 9:17 And when Samuel saw Saul, the LORD said unto him, Behold the man whom I spake to thee of! this same shall reign over my people.

Isa 8:5 The LORD spake also unto me again, saying,
Isa 8:6 Forasmuch as this people refuseth the waters of Shiloah that go softly, and rejoice in Rezin and Remaliah's son;
Isa 8:7 Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks:
Isa 8:8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.

Isa 8:11 For the LORD spake thus to me with a strong hand, and instructed me that I should not walk in the way of this people, saying,
Isa 8:12 Say ye not, A confederacy, to all them to whom this people shall say, A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid.

Isa 5:9 In mine ears said the LORD of hosts, Of a truth many houses shall be desolate, even great and fair, without inhabitant.

Isa 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

Jer 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.

Jer 46:13 The word that the LORD spake to Jeremiah the prophet, how Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon should come and smite the land of Egypt.

Jer 1:7 But the LORD said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak.

Eze 11:5 And the Spirit of the LORD fell upon me, and said unto me, Speak; Thus saith the LORD; Thus have ye said, O house of Israel: for I know the things that come into your mind, every one of them.

Eze 44:5 And the LORD said unto me, Son of man, mark well, and behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears all that I say unto thee concerning all the ordinances of the house of the LORD, and all the laws thereof; and mark well the entering in of the house, with every going forth of the sanctuary.

Hos 1:2 The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.

Amo 7:8 And the LORD said unto me, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A plumbline. Then said the Lord, Behold, I will set a plumbline in the midst of my people Israel: I will not again pass by them any more:
Amo 7:9 And the high places of Isaac shall be desolate, and the sanctuaries of Israel shall be laid waste; and I will rise against the house of Jeroboam with the sword.

Zec 11:15 And the LORD said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd.
Zec 11:16 For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.

It appears that God spoke audibly to the prophets.

Deu 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face.

Exo 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exo 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
Exo 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
Exo 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

It appears that God spoke audibly to the prophets but Moses knew Him face to face and seen partial glory from the LORD.
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GOD speaks inaudibly to Prophets. Moses is not a Prophet. GOD was speaking to Samuel inaudibly... You people are so far from understanding even kingdom authority. The Law and the Prophets. Moses is not included in the Prophets because he isn't a Prophet. Moses is a sent one, but he isn't a Prophet.

If you knew the bible, you would have known that Moses said: And a Prophet shall the LORD your GOD raise up, like unto me, him shall ye hear all that he speaks. Moses was telling the people that the Prophet is who is superior to him, and who is coming after him. Moses is not a Prophet.

And GOD said to Moses: I have made thee a god unto pharoah and aaron thy Prophet.
 
2ndTimothyGroup

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pittsburghjoe said:
Why do we say He died for our sins if it was only for original sin? I thought it was about every sin ever committed.
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Hebrews 9:26 NLT - "If that had been necessary, Christ would have had to die again and again, ever since the world began. But now, once for all time, he has appeared at the end of the age to remove sin by his own death as a sacrifice."
Hebrews 10:12 NLT - "But our High Priest offered himself to God as a single sacrifice for sins, good for all time. Then he sat down in the place of honor at God's right hand."
 
pittsburghjoe

pittsburghjoe

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2ndTimothyGroup said:
Hebrews 9:26 NLT - "If that had been necessary, Christ would have had to die again and again, ever since the world began. But now, once for all time, he has appeared at the end of the age to remove sin by his own death as a sacrifice."
Hebrews 10:12 NLT - "But our High Priest offered himself to God as a single sacrifice for sins, good for all time. Then he sat down in the place of honor at God's right hand."
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Colossians 1:22

he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,


1 John 2:2

He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.


So you are ok with this idea now:? Did Jesus become everyone on the cross? Is that only possible if He was already in everyone?
 
ewq1938

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Yahcubs777 said:
GOD speaks inaudibly to Prophets. Moses is not a Prophet.
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Moses is a prophet.

Deu 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,
 
2ndTimothyGroup

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pittsburghjoe said:
So you are ok with this idea now:? Did Jesus become everyone on the cross? Is that only possible if He was already in everyone?
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Sorry pal, but this is a new concept to me. I don't quite understand how it's possible. I'm sure I'm not understanding you properly. :)
 
Y

Yahcubs777

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ewq1938 said:
Moses is a prophet.

Deu 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,
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Like unto Moses, doesn't mean moses is a prophet. There is the Law and the Prophet. Moses is the Law, then there are the Prophets.The Prophet Elijah is like unto Moses.

Deut 18:
15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

16 According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.

17 And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

To be a Prophet is not gift, its not a talent, it has to do with the ability that the person was born with. And im not talking about the bioligical birth, but the Super Bio. The Spirit Being is the real person and the ability to hear from GOD inaudibly comes from the Spirit Being.

How? Do you know that the Spirit Being can talk, but its not audible. It is like how a satelite receives signals, then the Prophet is the decoder of those signals, so that he can produce a picture, a vision of what GOD revealed to him. It is not just GOD saying things plainly. GOD's height of communication and frequency is too high for that. The Prophet must first hear from GOD inaudibly, then decipher and assimilate what he heard, then teach the people.

Moses heard from GOD directly but audibly. Moses is not a Prophet. Moses did not have that ability that is why GOD spoke to him audibly. Moses is the Law, meaning that he representing the tabernacle of the law, or the authority of the law. Elijah represents the Prophet. There is the law and the Prophets.
 
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Yahcubs777

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Time to settle this once and for all.... It is written:

Numbers 12
6And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

7My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.

8With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
 
pittsburghjoe

pittsburghjoe

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2ndTimothyGroup said:
Sorry pal, but this is a new concept to me. I don't quite understand how it's possible. I'm sure I'm not understanding you properly. :)
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God doesn't have to know everyone's sins if He is everyone. Their sins go with it.
 
Dino246

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Yahcubs777 said:
Moses is not a Prophet.

Moses said: And a Prophet shall the LORD your GOD raise up, like unto me, him shall ye hear all that he speaks.
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You just showed Scripture refuting your claim. Moses calls himself a prophet in this verse.
 
Dino246

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Yahcubs777 said:
Time to settle this once and for all.... It is written:

Numbers 12
6And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

7My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.

8With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?
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This doesn't say that Moses is not a prophet; rather, it says that God would not speak to him through visions and dreams.

Apparently you understand far less of Scripture than you think. That's common among people with overinflated egos.
 
2ndTimothyGroup

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Dino246 said:
This doesn't say that Moses is not a prophet; rather, it says that God would not speak to him through visions and dreams.

Apparently you understand far less of Scripture than you think. That's common among people with overinflated egos.
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We need to be kind and respectful, as much as it depends upon ourselves. How can a person come to know the Truth if they are being berated and belittled?

Have a great day! :)
 
pittsburghjoe

pittsburghjoe

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2ndTimothyGroup said:
Hmmm. The problem with this is that . . . for sure . . . I am not God and God is not me.
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Do you really think I was implying that we are literally Jesus? Jesus also died for sins for people born after His sacrifice, I think that says God was able to do that because He was in them ..in the future. Again, I don't think God likes a front row seat to sin. Being inside them is another way to do the same job.
 
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