50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

Wow, deciding Sound Doctrine on ONE obscure/difficult/dubious verse!
Since when? And "beating this dead horse to death"???

(1) God's Excellent Rules for Knowledgeable Bible study! (#3 below...)

And, then, In Accordance with Rule # 5, how about discussing
ALL of these Biblical Pre-TOJT Departure concepts?:

(2) THREE "Ages" Rightly Divided = God's TIMELINES!

(3) Which "Gospel" Makes Way For Which "Gospel"?

(4) GREAT Tribulation? Or tribulations/GREAT GRACE Departure!

(5) Pre-TOJT GRACE Departure Expectations!

(6) God's HEAVENLY UPlook For HIS Body!

(7) Looking, Watching, Waiting For our Blessed Hope!
(vs Disobedience "watching for ISRAEL's signs!!")

(8) God's Differences of:
(9) CONFIDENCE in death/resurrection, OR in living/glorification!

(10) The TWO "Trumps" Of God In HIS "Age Of GRACE!"

(11) Judgment In Heaven vs judgment on earth!

(12) Post Departure Deception!

Discussion, IF you wish...

God Bless!

It really isn't an obscure/difficult/dubious verse (2 Thess. 2:3). Actually, that verse is one of the cornerstone verses of the pre-tribuation rapture theology and they quote it quite a bit. It's useless for pre-tribulation rapture teaching, but they'll probably keep quoting it anyway.

Turns out all this time they were interpreting incorrectly. I don't fault anyone for misunderstanding the scripture, but stiffnicked, hard heart, rebellion to the truth is not a proper response to the scripture.

To answer your question, I would love to discuss anything with you. I actually like the way you speak about the Bible even though we may disagree on some parts.

Anything in particular you want to start with?

I Mock Rev 14, a (False) claim

Revelation 14:14-18 below is nothing more than the (Harvest/Resurrection) at the (Second Coming) end of this world, as Matthew 13:37-43 shows this in parable with a full explanation

Second Coming, Angel's Harvest, End Of The World

the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Same Event, Harvest/Resurrection, End Of The World.

Revelation 14:14-18KJV
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

Matthew 13:37-43KJV
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Your Claim Is False

The main scripture used by supporters of the Pre-Trib Rapture is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a Pre-Trib rapture.

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Your claim is false, dishonest, as pinocchio's nose grows

Runningman answered you precise and direct, the church is the elect, and they will go through the tribulation and be present on earth for the harvest/gathering

Quashes nothing, the Greek (Apostasia) is the (Apostasy) of those who once held truth as seen in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, not a pre-trib departure/rapture of the church to heaven, a Thomas Ice (Lie)

(Apostasia) A Falling Away Or Defection From Truth Once Held (Apostasy)

Strong’s Definitions
ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.

2 Thessalonians 2:3KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The battle is spiritual, against spiritual wickedness in high places Eph 6:10-12

2 Thessalonians 2:3 stands in the way of the evil deceiver Satan, he wants to remove the verse that exposes him.

It's not a matter of error, as the words of God are very clear, the (Falling Away/Apostasy) comes first, then the (Man Of Sin) is revealed to the Church present on earth

Yes this verse destroys the false Pre-Trib Rapture teaching, "Gone"

(Let No Man Deceive You By Any Means)

(Apostasia) A Falling Away Or Defection From Truth Once Held (Apostasy)

Strong’s Definitions
ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.

2 Thessalonians 2:3KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Th2:3 should be read and understood in connection with and in light of v.2, for "that day" being referred to in v.3a is what v.2 had just been speaking of, where Paul (in v.2) has just said (basically), "... don't freak out and panic-your-brains-out [lol] by anyone trying to tell you that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]. 3 That day [the time-period just spoken of in v.2] will NOT be present, if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* [the definite article functions to POINT BACK to something PREVIOUSLY the text... the noun-event of v.1] and the man of sin be revealed..."


The false conveyors were telling them "that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]" and Paul is saying, "Chill, it AIN'T, and here's WHY" (then he proceeds to lay out the SEQUENCE 3x in this text).



My question to you is, in your scenario (as you have explained it)... WHAT IS IT that the false conveyors were telling the Thessalonians "IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]" ?






[btw, I agree with the connection between "the man of sin" and the first "beast" of Rev13:5-7,1... which also connects back to the "another king" of Daniel 7:20-25,27,11,24... where v.25 says, "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High [see also v.21 "and made war with the saints AND PREVAILED AGAINST THEM], and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time." (connecting this with the same time-frame spoken of in other related passages); However, re: "the Church," Jesus had said, "the gates of hell SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT"]

I wouldn't dare red-X your reply. It is unbecoming of a Christian message board.
WOULDN'T DARE. I just wouldn't do it. Nope not gonna do it. No way.

It is a convienent way to get ugly.

....and God hates ugly. Lol

The Red X is for disagreement, if the forum owner/admin didn't want it, this wouldn't be available in the selection.

Now God hates a poster who disagrees with you

The Red X is for disagreement, if the forum owner/admin didn't want it, this wouldn't be available in the selection.

In Acts 21:21, "apostasian" has NO definite article ('the') accompanying it ("[that you (Paul) teach...] A DEPARTURE *from Moses*")

In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 "hee apostasia" HAS the definite article ('the' / 'hee') accompanying it (when this Greek word does not ordinarily REQUIRE it): "... THE DEPARTURE *FIRST*..."

Why is that?





And, by the way, why shouldn't the reader (of 2Th2:3) INJECT "FROM MOSES" into the text of 2Th2:3? (<--like is found in its only other occurrence, Acts 21:21)

"the church is the elect, and they will go through the tribulation and be present on the earth for the harvest/gathering"

So are "angels" elect, but you consistently fail to include them in your scenario. Why is that, I wonder?

"I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality. " 1Tim5:21.

Is there some obvious reason why you leave them out?

(Apostasia) A Falling Away Or Defection From Truth Once Held (Apostasy)

Strong’s Definitions
ἀποστασία apostasía, ap-os-tas-ee'-ah; feminine of the same as G647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):—falling away, forsake.

2 Thessalonians 2:3KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Deja vu all over again.

When one stops reading at the first sentence because they've happened across some "trigger words" that make them immediately misconstrue the entire point of the rest of the post, it simply confirms to me what I said in the above post...

You should calm down.

Everyone is just giving their 2 cents.

Let love rule

No red exes

The scripture is very clear on such individuals

2 Timothy 3:12-14KJV
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

Right.

There are NO "signs" which precede (lead up to and point toward) "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" / "The Departure"...

ALL of the "signs" FOLLOW "our Rapture" / "The Departure," and lead up to / point toward His Second Coming to the earth (at Rev19)