50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

The truth is, Posttribbers are going to miss the marriage and supper. They will have NO WAY to get to heaven.

I'm afraid you have misunderstood when Gods wrath begins and Ends. Jesus told us plainly:

Matthew 24:29
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

Notice that in the 6th seal, what Jesus said would happen "immediately after the tribulation of those days" happens in the 6th seal:

Revelation 6:12-17
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Also, plainly notice that this is when the day of Gods wrath comes. Jesus said this occurs immediately after the tribulation, meanjng the great tribulation is not God's wrath.

Don't fall into the false assumption that Revelation is written sequentially in neat chronological order. This is not the case as I just proved to you. There are numerous parallel teachings in Revelation.

If that isn't plain enough, Revelation 12:12 says the great tribulation is Satan's wrath.

Think about this for a moment before you reply: do you think God's wrath is setting up an anti-Christ, false prophet, mark of the beast, and the persecution of God's elect? Does that sound like God to you?

A study of eschatology plainly reveals the great tribulation is not from God, but He responds to it using His power, two witnesses, and the return of Christ.

I Agree 100% with your explanation of Gods wrath

Just to mention, Gods instruction to the church on earth when this time takes place seen in Isaiah 26:20-21 below, enter your dwelling until the indignation is past, sorta like the passover in Egypt

Isaiah 26:20-21KJV
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

There Is No Pre-Trib Rapture In 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 Below, Who Do You Think Your Kidding

The main scripture used by supporters of the Pre-Trib Rapture teaching is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a Pre-Trib rapture, don't be deceived

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

I Agree 100% with your explanation of Gods wrath

Just to mention, Gods instruction to the church on earth when this time takes place seen in Isaiah 26:20-21 below, enter your dwelling until the indignation is past, sorta like the passover in Egypt

Isaiah 26:20-21KJV
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Of course you are free to believe this passage how you will, but you may not get the outcome you expect. You will be left behind and will be overcome. That overcome is also scripture.

We all know that there is no timing information in verses 15-17. Paul does not get to timing until chapter 5. But in chapter 5 he tells us that the rapture will come just before wrath.

If you wish to stay behind in God's wrath, I believe God will honor your faith. But WHY? God has planned an escape from His wrath.

No one is disagreeing with you that there will be a resurrection on the last day, but Paul's rapture will not be a part of that resurrection. Don't forget, there will be more than one group: there is the church, then the 144,000, then the Two Witnesses, then those beheaded during the days of GT, and then the Old Testament saints. What did Paul write? "Each in his own order." There will be order in resurrections: all don't rise at the same time.

Where you miss it: for the timing of Paul's rapture, you MUST study Paul. The body of Christ on earth is a different group from the OT saints, or the 70th week saints.

By the way, VERY few deny 1 Thes. 4:16 & 17. But it is truth, many don't know God's timing, because they don't study chapter 5. Then many also don't understand John's chronology and so don't recognize that huge group too large to number and the just raptured church. Also few who try to argue timing really can't properly find the 70th week start and midpoint in Revelation. How then can they know for sure pre, mid, or post?

You are both in error.

I'm afraid you have misunderstood when Gods wrath begins and Ends. Jesus told us plainly:

Matthew 24:29
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

Notice that in the 6th seal, what Jesus said would happen "immediately after the tribulation of those days" happens in the 6th seal:

Revelation 6:12-17
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Also, plainly notice that this is when the day of Gods wrath comes. Jesus said this occurs immediately after the tribulation, meanjng the great tribulation is not God's wrath.

Don't fall into the false assumption that Revelation is written sequentially in neat chronological order. This is not the case as I just proved to you. There are numerous parallel teachings in Revelation.

If that isn't plain enough, Revelation 12:12 says the great tribulation is Satan's wrath.

Think about this for a moment before you reply: do you think God's wrath is setting up an anti-Christ, false prophet, mark of the beast, and the persecution of God's elect? Does that sound like God to you?

A study of eschatology plainly reveals the great tribulation is not from God, but He responds to it using His power, two witnesses, and the return of Christ.

Another new member, you joined a few days ago and jumped into the thread full steam ahead, a mystery?

Does this mean you believe that another person "cannot possibly be born-again" if they disagree with you?


Does this mean you believe that a person "cannot possibly be in error" if they are born-again?

Truth is, the marriage supper takes place "After" the second coming in fire and final judgement, in the (Eternal Kingdom) in the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem.

Why would ANYONE try to determine doctrine in a few lines of text when we have the same thing written in chapters of text? We should form doctrine by the most complete coverage of a subject first, then fill in missing pieces from other texts. For example, that is one verse in Daniel 9 about the 70th week, but 9 chapters about it in Revelation.

I'm afraid you have misunderstood when Gods wrath begins and Ends. Jesus told us plainly: My friend, I understand His wrath well; it is you who have missed the truth. This verse is a case in point.

You have made a classical error, thinking the cosmic signs in Matthew 24 are the same signs as at the 6th seal. You have only read, and not studied. What you suggest is impossible, not fitting the text. Notice, at the 6th seal, the sun turns black. There is only one condition where the sun appears black: a total eclipse. And how would we know? It is VISIBLE. Then it says the moon turns to blood. When does the moon appear as blood red? Again, during a total eclipse. And how would one KNOW the moon appears red? Again, it must be VISIBLE.

If you study the text in Matthew 24, it says the sun is darkened. What does that mean? If you look up the Greek word, it means of planets, totally devoid of light! Did you not notice that TOTAL DARKNESS was one of the vials of the vials of His wrath? Did you not know that lightning shows up very well in darkness? Jesus coming in Rev. 19 is in darkness. If the son is devoid of all light, it would be INVISIBLE. If the moon is not giving her light, it too would be INVISIBLE. How then could ANYONE insist these are speaking of the same signs?

We have not even talked yet about timing or about purpose. The truth is, the total eclipses of the sun and moon will be the sign for the start of the Day of the Lord. My friend, if you understand ANYTHING about Revelation, you should know the DAY starts before the 70th week starts. The entire 70th week comes with God's wrath: the trumpets in the first half, and the vials in the last half, ALL with God's wrath. The purpose of the signs at the 6th seal will be so people KNOW the Day of the Lord has come.

Then 7 plus years AFTER THAT, AFTER the days of tribulation, the 7th vial will end the 70th week, and it will be DARK: the sun and moon not visible. And this, my friend, will be the sign of the coming of the Son of Man. He will suddenly show up as lightning flashing across the sky, from East to West.

By the way, don't fall into the false assumption that Revelation is not chronological: it is VERY chronological. But there are intermissions and parentheses.

I wonder: do you understand God's PURPOSE in the 70th week and in particular the days of GT? Did you not read in Daniel 12 that God's purpose is to totally shatter the power of Israel, and its people? Today they believe in the IDF. When the nations of the world assemble to wipe Israel off the map, their IDF will not last the first week. God is going to bring them to the place that ONLY GOD can save them, and every one of them will KNOW this. What? did you not understand that it will be Jesus delegating 42 months of authority to the Beast?

Back to the drawing board, as they say.

So you think the great tribulation, anti-Christ, false prophet, mark of the beast, persecution of the saints are from God?

Why would ANYONE try to determine doctrine in a few lines of text when we have the same thing written in chapters of text? We should form doctrine by the most complete coverage of a subject first, then fill in missing pieces from other texts. For example, that is one verse in Daniel 9 about the 70th week, but 9 chapters about it in Revelation.

I'm afraid you have misunderstood when Gods wrath begins and Ends. Jesus told us plainly: My friend, I understand His wrath well; it is you who have missed the truth. This verse is a case in point.

You have made a classical error, thinking the cosmic signs in Matthew 24 are the same signs as at the 6th seal. You have only read, and not studied. What you suggest is impossible, not fitting the text. Notice, at the 6th seal, the sun turns black. There is only one condition where the sun appears black: a total eclipse. And how would we know? It is VISIBLE. Then it says the moon turns to blood. When does the moon appear as blood red? Again, during a total eclipse. And how would one KNOW the moon appears red? Again, it must be VISIBLE.

If you study the text in Matthew 24, it says the sun is darkened. What does that mean? If you look up the Greek word, it means of planets, totally devoid of light! Did you not notice that TOTAL DARKNESS was one of the vials of the vials of His wrath? Did you not know that lightning shows up very well in darkness? Jesus coming in Rev. 19 is in darkness. If the son is devoid of all light, it would be INVISIBLE. If the moon is not giving her light, it too would be INVISIBLE. How then could ANYONE insist these are speaking of the same signs?

We have not even talked yet about timing or about purpose. The truth is, the total eclipses of the sun and moon will be the sign for the start of the Day of the Lord. My friend, if you understand ANYTHING about Revelation, you should know the DAY starts before the 70th week starts. The entire 70th week comes with God's wrath: the trumpets in the first half, and the vials in the last half, ALL with God's wrath. The purpose of the signs at the 6th seal will be so people KNOW the Day of the Lord has come.

Then 7 plus years AFTER THAT, AFTER the days of tribulation, the 7th vial will end the 70th week, and it will be DARK: the sun and moon not visible. And this, my friend, will be the sign of the coming of the Son of Man. He will suddenly show up as lightning flashing across the sky, from East to West.

By the way, don't fall into the false assumption that Revelation is not chronological: it is VERY chronological. But there are intermissions and parentheses.

I wonder: do you understand God's PURPOSE in the 70th week and in particular the days of GT? Did you not read in Daniel 12 that God's purpose is to totally shatter the power of Israel, and its people? Today they believe in the IDF. When the nations of the world assemble to wipe Israel off the map, their IDF will not last the first week. God is going to bring them to the place that ONLY GOD can save them, and every one of them will KNOW this. What? did you not understand that it will be Jesus delegating 42 months of authority to the Beast?

Back to the drawing board, as they say.

By the way, don't fall into the false assumption that Revelation is not chronological: it is VERY chronological. But there are intermissions and parentheses.

Did you not understand what happened at the 7th trumpet? Did you fail to understand that Satan was kicked off His throne as god of this world, and the kingdoms of this world were given to JESUS? Did you not read?

Revelation 11:17
Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

EVERYTHING that happens on earth after Jesus begins to reign will be GOD'S doing. I thought everyone knew this.

Maybe a lightbulb will go on here. There are millions of "fence sitters" who try and not make a decision either for or against God. But when the days of GT start, God is going to force all people to choose sides. This is JESUS REIGNING!

Did you not understand that the 42 months of authority is AFTER Jesus gets the kingdoms of the world? Jesus will ALLOW the Beast 42 months. Keep in mind, it will be HARVEST TIME for God, of both saints and sinners. Read of the harvest in Rev. 14.

Any theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology will be proven wrong.

Don't take my word for it, go back and check: the marriage is OVER in heaven before Jesus descends to Armageddon.

That is rev 19
The second coming on white horses

You have been refuted at every corner regarding your claim of a pre-trib rapture
It is amazing how posttribbers THINK they "refute" everyone that disagrees with them.

The truth is, Posttribbers are going to miss the marriage and supper. They will have NO WAY to get to heaven.