By Nature Children of Wrath as others !

Yes. However, those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, reject what God has revealed and do what we see in verse 20

Romans 1:20 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

dino

Its pitiful you dont already know the answer to that friend !

Eph 2:3

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Who are the we here Paul is referring to as by nature were being the children of wrath ? No doubt he included himself by employing the pronoun we. ----------Paul was speaking about them, himself inclusive, prior to becoming believers

He's meaning believers as himself, even the Chosen ones in Christ before the foundation of the world as characterize in Eph 1:4 ----- yes, but prior to their becoming believers. The question is, who are the chosen ones in Christ Jesus?

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: What did Christ tell us, "be perfect even as your father which is in heaven is perfect" God tells us, be holy for I am holy. So, from the foundation of the world, his plan for us is to be holy and without blame before him in love. And, he has given us the path of life that will lead us to holiness which is basically to be and remain in him. Whosoever follows this path, he has chosen from the foundation of the world to be conformed to the image of his Son, Jesus Christ.

Now with this established as to whom Paul is writing of in Eph 2:3 as once being the children of wrath as others, does this designation mean that at one time believers, the Chosen of God were by nature under Gods wrath ? Absolutely not, by no means possible were the believers in Christ, the Chosen of God ever under Gods Wrath as others. Neither does it read in Eph 2:3 that any were under Gods wrath.

So what does Paul mean here by this designation " were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."?

Here are a few things Paul may mean. There are men and women that are definitely under Gods wrath, these would be the vessels of wrath, who are destined for wrath Rom 9:22

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Romans 1:18 tells us that "the wrath of God is against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness" If we say we are believers and we follow unbelievers to indulge in their ungodly ways without repentance, the wrath of God will fall not only on them but on us too. There is no respect of persons with God.

God is Justice. He renders to every man according to his deeds. Hence, we behold His goodness and severity (wrath). On them who follow after ungodliness, His severity or wrath while on them who follow righteousness, He bestows His goodness if they continue in his goodness, otherwise they also shall be cut off. (Romans 11:22),

Now by nature the Chosen of God when unbelievers do visibly appear as vessels of wrath fitted for destruction simply because they sinners naturally like they are. -- don't understand your meaning

And being sinners as the vessels of wrath are, they are also most deserving of Gods wrath and destruction as all men are by nature.

And also, by nature the Chosen are wrathful children towards God as other sinners are, meaning their disposition towards the True God is one of wrathful, enmity against Him as in Rom 5:10 ------- not after becoming a believer

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. off course. As sinners, he died for us and reconciled us with God. As believers, our old man is crucified with him , that the body of sin might be destroyed that henceforth we should not serve sin but walk in newness of life. We are dead indeed unto sin but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Col 1:21

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled --- see above comment

The word for enemies here in the above is the word echthros :

From a primary echtho (to hate); hateful (passively, odious, or actively, hostile)

1. hated, odious, hateful
2. hostile, hating, and opposing another
   1. used of men as at enmity with God by their sin
      1. opposing (God) in the mind

And the word hateful means resentful, even wrathful !

The elect/chosen by nature as in common with all other men are carnal in the flesh, and heres what Paul writes about them in the flesh Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity[hatred] against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

And Paul continues in verse 8 to say -- so then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. This is not about the elect or the chosen as you are saying because the elect/chosen has the Spirit of God in Him because of righteousness and does not operate within the realm of carnal mind. He is in the Spirit and not in the flesh.

Yet with all this foul disposition we naturally have against the True God, as the Chosen of God, they're never under Gods wrath . They are never vessels of wrath God is fitting for destruction, Gods disposition towards them, even when they are enemies towards Himself, is one of Love, Mercy, and Reconciliation, and Peace through the death of Christ for them. Rom 5:8,10;Eph 2:4; 1 Jn 2:2

it is written, mercy rejoices over judgement. Jesus Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. Gods plan of salvation is for the whole world. So his grace (love and kindness) is available to all. It is a gift and a promise fulfilled. His love, Mercy peace etc continue to be available for us all.

So believers, the Chosen in Christ are never under Gods Wrath and scripture doesnt anywhere teach that, not even Eph 2:3 !

You are incorrect in your surmisings. I have no problem discussing Romans 9. However, we were discussing Romans 1 and you were the one who transitioned from Romans 1 to Romans 9 without considering the implications of Romans 1 ... see Post #99, Post 100, Post #101, Post #102, and Post #103 ... just keeping the facts straight.





See? Here again, you do not stick with the context of Romans 1. According to Romans 1:18, they suppress the truth:

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness

Again, the word "hold" is the Greek word katechō which means to suppress, to restrain.

Psalm 50:17 Seeing thou hatest instruction, and castest my words behind thee.

Psalm 50:17 does not state that God withholds anything from them, nor does God cast His word behind them. They cast God's Word behind them of their own accord.





Sticking with Romans 1 (because that is the section of Scripture we have been discussing) ...

Romans 1:

15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness


vs 15 - the gospel is preached ...

vs 16 - it [the gospel] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth [those who don't suppress, restrain - vs 18];

vs 17 - therein [the gospel] is the righteousness of God revealed

We all understand these verses. It is the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation ... the gospel is the righteousness of God revealed.

vs 18 - when the gospel is preached and the power of God unto salvation and the righteousness of God is revealed, some suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

Does this mean that the gospel is not the power of God unto salvation? No!

Does this mean that the gospel does not reveal the righteousness of God? No!

Does this mean that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation and the gospel is the righteousness of God, but some suppress the truth so that they do not believe the gospel? Yes!

I recognize the snarling of a cornered animal when I see it.

See my comments in red.

I think you're off subject here. You're replying to a response I made to someone else on a different subject.

You are replying to something I said to someone else on another subject. But as long as we are being admonished about how "Paul gives a lot of information in his letters that are comprehensive and he spends chapters explaining issues," he does so as well in Romans Chapter 9.

But as to your specific question? Man is born in the image of Adam.

If the elect of God, who by nature are the children of wrath as others[the non elect] if they at anytime be under Gods wrath because of their sins and being children of wrath by nature, then it serves to reason that Gods wrath wasn't turned away by the atoning blood of His Dear Son, that His blood failed to satisfy His offended Justice for them, that His Blood failed to propitiate Him, to appease or turn away His Wrath on them. If that Blood didn't do it, then what does ? Is it the sinners act of believing that ultimately appeased Gods Wrath over and above the Blood of Christ ?18

You're assuming that we were saved while we did not believe and while we hated God.

You're also assuming that the wrath of God is already being poured out on the world.

I think you need to define what you mean by "God's wrath"

Salvation is a gift. When a gift is given, the recipient can accept ... not accept (reject) ... mishandle and not use the gift for its intended purpose ... etc., etc.

I knew a man who claimed to be a believer. He needed a car and said he was "believing" God to provide for his need. Another believer offered to give him his car ... a toyota (don't recall the model). The "believing" believer (cough, cough) turned down the gift. He said he was "believing" for a mercedes, not a toyota!!!

The same goes on with God's Gift to mankind ... "no thanks, God ... not what I expected ... "

Just because the believer "receives" God's Gift (i.e. does not reject), this does not make the Gift any less a Gift from God ... nor does it in any way, shape, or form affect the efficacy of the atoning blood of His Dear Son.

You don't get it

If the elect of God, who by nature are the children of wrath as others[the non elect] if they at anytime be under Gods wrath because of their sins and being children of wrath by nature, then it serves to reason that Gods wrath wasn't turned away by the atoning blood of His Dear Son, that His blood failed to satisfy His offended Justice for them, that His Blood failed to propitiate Him, to appease or turn away His Wrath on them. If that Blood didn't do it, then what does ? Is it the sinners act of believing that ultimately appeased Gods Wrath over and above the Blood of Christ ?18

Eph 2:3

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Who are the we here Paul is referring to as by nature were being the children of wrath ? No doubt he included himself by employing the pronoun we.

He's meaning believers as himself, even the Chosen ones in Christ before the foundation of the world as characterize in Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Now with this established as to whom Paul is writing of in Eph 2:3 as once being the children of wrath as others, does this designation mean that at one time believers, the Chosen of God were by nature under Gods wrath ? Absolutely not, by no means possible were the believers in Christ, the Chosen of God ever under Gods Wrath as others. Neither does it read in Eph 2:3 that any were under Gods wrath.

So what does Paul mean here by this designation " were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."?

Here are a few things Paul may mean. There are men and women that are definitely under Gods wrath, these would be the vessels of wrath, who are destined for wrath Rom 9:22

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Now by nature the Chosen of God when unbelievers do visibly appear as vessels of wrath fitted for destruction simply because they sinners naturally like they are.

And being sinners as the vessels of wrath are, they are also most deserving of Gods wrath and destruction as all men are by nature.

And also, by nature the Chosen are wrathful children towards God as other sinners are, meaning their disposition towards the True God is one of wrathful, enmity against Him as in Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Col 1:21

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

The word for enemies here in the above is the word echthros :

From a primary echtho (to hate); hateful (passively, odious, or actively, hostile)

1. hated, odious, hateful
2. hostile, hating, and opposing another
   1. used of men as at enmity with God by their sin
      1. opposing (God) in the mind

And the word hateful means resentful, even wrathful !

The elect/chosen by nature as in common with all other men are carnal in the flesh, and heres what Paul writes about them in the flesh Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity[hatred] against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Yet with all this foul disposition we naturally have against the True God, as the Chosen of God, they're never under Gods wrath . They are never vessels of wrath God is fitting for destruction, Gods disposition towards them, even when they are enemies towards Himself, is one of Love, Mercy, and Reconciliation, and Peace through the death of Christ for them. Rom 5:8,10;Eph 2:4; 1 Jn 2:2

So believers, the Chosen in Christ are never under Gods Wrath and scripture doesnt anywhere teach that, not even Eph 2:3 !