Struggling to equate the God of the Old Testament and the God of Jesus
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Romans 5:8-10 (KJV)
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
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step back, and one can see what defines God in the old testament is the relationship between God and his people which reaches the highest point in the song of songs. It's all about the relationship. The same idea of relationship is key with Jesus who i think did clarify how to view God in the right way. Jews have a whole system to give context to every single verse and often it explains why such and such was said. We don't have that (we would need bigger bookshelf it's massive), Jesus is our 'system' or 'lens' instead through the Holy Spirit. I think your intuition is good only getting to grips with the old testament isn't so easy but I notice many of my friends who have very little study of it seem to automatically know how to handle it simply from knowing Jesus, i find that quite amazing really. Sometimes study can lead one astray and Jesus seemed aware of this in his dealings with folk for sure
The same GOD that spoke In the old testament Is the same GOD that speaks In the new testament.The law was added. because of Adams disobedience choosing to not be obedient to the WORD of GOD so then GOD allowed Adam who chose sin (disobedience to the WORD of GOD) to meet GODs perfect standard of righteousness on his own,But man could not meet GODs perfect standard of righteousness because GOD IS Perfect but man Is carnal but GOD made a way for man to have a relationship with HIM and still be righteous by sending HIS WORD manifested In flesh (JESUS) to punish sin In the body for ALL of us (who will believes HIS WORD) satisfying the demand of the law which meant death to all those who break the law.
1 John 3:4
King James Version
4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
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Galatians 3:10-19
King James Version
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10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
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Romans 7:12-25
King James Version
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
1 John 3:4
King James Version
4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
+++
Galatians 3:10-19
King James Version
.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
+++
Romans 7:12-25
King James Version
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
T
Unfortunately I have to agree that God showed more wrath in the Old Testament. We have God asking Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, God wanting to kill Moses because he wasn't circumcised, Passover, God sending pestilence, a flood etc. God was very unhappy about immorality and disobedience, and took swift action against this. Meanwhile, Jesus spoke harshly against sin but seem more focused on hypocrites and the rich. But, I believe God in the New and Old Testaments is the same, but in the Old Testament God took swift action against immorality and disobedience whereas in the New Testament I don't think Jesus did at all (so He may have "seemed" nicer and perhaps more forgiving).
God in the OT sent many prophets time and time again saying return to me and I will forgive. In the Bible you can literally flip a page and now a century or two has zoomed by. Sometimes as city or people have been living in wickedness for long periods of time. Remember Jesus will return and go to battle with the nations of the world. They will be defeated and judged. Jesus speaks of fire and brimstone for those who deny him. You will have to talk about specific cases where you feel it was unforgiving or wrathful. God's anger is always justified due to human sin. But God is very patient and always works to pull people to Him. Mankind has the choice to deny or to love. Sin can not go unpunished due to God's nature of being all Holy. But God's plan was to send the Son which is God incarnate or of the flesh. He sacrifices Himself for us.
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Fearful thought isn't it though, on the one hand, that they are One but, on the other hand, also very comforting. I recently watch a short segment of commentary explaining Genesis that noted the progression ( but regression might be a better word there) of songs singing praises to God that ended up just before the flood with a song sings praises to murder (citing Lamech's ode which, I had additionally noted although it wasn't mentioned, also included reference to his pimp status...O I mean, speaking to his "wives")!
Hello @SoulSearcher, in case it hasn't been mentioned in your thread yet, there is but one Divine Being (who we refer to as God) .. Isaiah 43:10-11, who exists both from and to everlasting as three Divine Persons (3 Members of the Godhead, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit .. e.g. Matthew 28:19).
In fact, it appears that the 2nd (pre-incarnate) Member of the Godhead was the One who actually made all of God's physical appears in the OT, like the burning bush, the pillar of smoke or fire that led Israel during the Exodus, the Throne Room scene in Isaiah 6, etc. .. cf John 12:41. This would also mean that the finger that scribbled on the ground before the angry mob and the adulterous woman in John 8 was the very same one that wrote the 10 Commandments on two tablets of stone atop Mt. Sinai about a millennium and a half earlier (give or take).
This would certainly seem to be in keeping with (make sense of) verses about the Father such as these .. John 1:18; 1 Timothy 6:16.
The church formulated the Doctrine of the Trinity to carefully teach, circumscribe and safeguard the truth concerning the nature of the Godhead that the Bible teaches us. It was never meant as a way of explaining the nature of the Godhead to us, as that is simply beyond any of us, at least on the side of the grave anyway. It's called a Biblical "mystery" because while we cannot fully comprehend it with our finite minds, the Bible tells us that it is true of God nevertheless.
God bless you
~Deut
p.s. - here are a few OT verses/passages both from and about God that you may find more pleasing .. Isaiah 40:31, 41:2, 10; Jeremiah 29:11, 31:3, Psalm 103, 139. Believe it or not, if you look carefully as you read, you will find His love, mercy and grace on every page of the OT too (like the passage below which was written during one of the darkest hours in the history of Israel).
In fact, it appears that the 2nd (pre-incarnate) Member of the Godhead was the One who actually made all of God's physical appears in the OT, like the burning bush, the pillar of smoke or fire that led Israel during the Exodus, the Throne Room scene in Isaiah 6, etc. .. cf John 12:41. This would also mean that the finger that scribbled on the ground before the angry mob and the adulterous woman in John 8 was the very same one that wrote the 10 Commandments on two tablets of stone atop Mt. Sinai about a millennium and a half earlier (give or take).
This would certainly seem to be in keeping with (make sense of) verses about the Father such as these .. John 1:18; 1 Timothy 6:16.
The church formulated the Doctrine of the Trinity to carefully teach, circumscribe and safeguard the truth concerning the nature of the Godhead that the Bible teaches us. It was never meant as a way of explaining the nature of the Godhead to us, as that is simply beyond any of us, at least on the side of the grave anyway. It's called a Biblical "mystery" because while we cannot fully comprehend it with our finite minds, the Bible tells us that it is true of God nevertheless.
God bless you
~Deut
p.s. - here are a few OT verses/passages both from and about God that you may find more pleasing .. Isaiah 40:31, 41:2, 10; Jeremiah 29:11, 31:3, Psalm 103, 139. Believe it or not, if you look carefully as you read, you will find His love, mercy and grace on every page of the OT too
(like the passage below which was written during one of the darkest hours in the history of Israel).-
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The God of the old testament has the very same characteristics as the God of the new testament, the same grace and kindness. God's goal in both testaments was to save mankind so they may live with Him in eternity. It was God's reaction to the disobedience of Adam and Eve, but it was over 4,000 years before Christ completed and fulfilled it to perfection. All the happenings of the old testament were literal symbols of Christ and the kingdom of God.
We read of wars and killings, they are telling us that God hates sin. Sin kills us, God's grace saves us. The old testament is under the old covenant in which the laws and happenings are written in stone. The same laws are given in the new testament, but they are written in our hearts. In the old testament they are hard and exact, but without love. In the new testament we are to test them with the basic law of love.
Christ explained this in the sermon on the mount. He repeated the law in stone saying "you have been told". Then Christ explained the difference in the law under the new covenant saying "but I tell you".
We read of wars and killings, they are telling us that God hates sin. Sin kills us, God's grace saves us. The old testament is under the old covenant in which the laws and happenings are written in stone. The same laws are given in the new testament, but they are written in our hearts. In the old testament they are hard and exact, but without love. In the new testament we are to test them with the basic law of love.
Christ explained this in the sermon on the mount. He repeated the law in stone saying "you have been told". Then Christ explained the difference in the law under the new covenant saying "but I tell you".
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When first the Holy Spirit entered into me I was also given to read the Word. Previous sto this I had attmpted many times to read the Word but I could not make sense of it nor read more than a line or two, and I was given to put it down being confused by it al.
The k night of my having received the infilling of the Holy Spirit, I was led to a blue book opned, face down in a storage room of the Hungry I, a coffee house on campus. Why I was in the storage room is another of those miracles, for I was moved by the Holy Spirit to go into this sroom
I picked up the book, and began to read from the opned to pages. As I read , I kept saying, "this is true, oh yes, this is true."
I looked dto the top of the page, and it wass Isaiah. I could not put it down, so I read and read. Looking at the front of the book, I saw it was the Oxford Study Bible.
The following day I went to the Student Book Store and purchased my own version of the same.
Now the firsst time through I could ndot put it down. I took off to the Rockies in Colorado, USA, and studied and shared it with whoever would have the patience to hear me.
Since then I haave been reading and reading, yet, although I believe it all, I understand very little, and that is really no biggy since it seems no ne understands much of it anyway, and those who say they do seem to be hung up on points and words. Not that words of the Word are not important but they are many times just for the reader to truly understand.
My experience was on Good Friday 1969. I have been reading ever since, and learning very little, but I know that my Salvation is the deed on the Cross done by the Only Begotten Son, my Lord, Kind, Savior Friend and much more.
The k night of my having received the infilling of the Holy Spirit, I was led to a blue book opned, face down in a storage room of the Hungry I, a coffee house on campus. Why I was in the storage room is another of those miracles, for I was moved by the Holy Spirit to go into this sroom
I picked up the book, and began to read from the opned to pages. As I read , I kept saying, "this is true, oh yes, this is true."
I looked dto the top of the page, and it wass Isaiah. I could not put it down, so I read and read. Looking at the front of the book, I saw it was the Oxford Study Bible.
The following day I went to the Student Book Store and purchased my own version of the same.
Now the firsst time through I could ndot put it down. I took off to the Rockies in Colorado, USA, and studied and shared it with whoever would have the patience to hear me.
Since then I haave been reading and reading, yet, although I believe it all, I understand very little, and that is really no biggy since it seems no ne understands much of it anyway, and those who say they do seem to be hung up on points and words. Not that words of the Word are not important but they are many times just for the reader to truly understand.
My experience was on Good Friday 1969. I have been reading ever since, and learning very little, but I know that my Salvation is the deed on the Cross done by the Only Begotten Son, my Lord, Kind, Savior Friend and much more.
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The Isaac episode in context of the day was teaching people that God does not want human sacrifices. That was done and quite common in ancient religion including that region and the belief in the power of this sacrifice needed a powerful story to whack them with. In the end God himself sacrificed himself for us. Everything changed. Now we know the character of God whatever we might read in the scriptures, now we know! Holiness though... that didn't change. It's actually pretty amazing and i'm not gonna even talk about it because it's too amazing it's beyond amazing!
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Yes it looks on the surface when looking at the Old Testament that God is wrathful and such compared to the New Testament, but what happens when you really look at a book like Jeremiah or Isaiah?
I've finished a look at Jeremiah and am now studying Isaiah.
There are deep problem lsrael at times with Israel and Israel's enemies.
With Israel..mainly being idol worship, greed, pride and not looking after the fatherless or widows.
What is God to do?
He is justified in wiping out Israel and/or Israel's enemies. They are that corrupt.
But God .. thru His prophets .. warns Israel and Israel's enemies of what will happen if they continue in idol worship etc.. he doesn't wipe them out right away.
This is unmerited favour.. grace! This is mercy! This is what Jesus does in the NT.
And even when Israel turns back to God but fails again.. God disciplines Israel but preserves a remnant. He never puts a complete end to them even though they become evil.
Then when you read the warnings of God..its like a broken hearted Father, pleading for His children to come back to Him. It's like a love letter!
The old Testament had a different way people were serving Jeshua, but it was the same Yeshua as the New Testament.
Grace combined with truth.
I've finished a look at Jeremiah and am now studying Isaiah.
There are deep problem lsrael at times with Israel and Israel's enemies.
With Israel..mainly being idol worship, greed, pride and not looking after the fatherless or widows.
What is God to do?
He is justified in wiping out Israel and/or Israel's enemies. They are that corrupt.
But God .. thru His prophets .. warns Israel and Israel's enemies of what will happen if they continue in idol worship etc.. he doesn't wipe them out right away.
This is unmerited favour.. grace! This is mercy! This is what Jesus does in the NT.
And even when Israel turns back to God but fails again.. God disciplines Israel but preserves a remnant. He never puts a complete end to them even though they become evil.
Then when you read the warnings of God..its like a broken hearted Father, pleading for His children to come back to Him. It's like a love letter!
The old Testament had a different way people were serving Jeshua, but it was the same Yeshua as the New Testament.
Grace combined with truth.
I have struggled to understand this question too. I think the hardest problem God had was getting through to a generation of people who had inherited a sinfull nature We have all became part of a spiritual warfare battle to overcome evil. God needs to make people to think twice to re establish his kingdom untill the day comes when God saves the world.
Commands like take every thought captive is a clue that all men had been corrupted.
Commands like take every thought captive is a clue that all men had been corrupted.
God was mercyful in the OT to those who repented.. The book of Jonah recorded such a occasion when God declared through Jonah that he would destroy the people of the large city of ninivah.. But when Jonah announced Gods coming judgement upon Ninivah the people of Ninivah repented of their evil and so God relented and did not bring the destruction He said He would.. The OT time and time again demonstrated Gods standards and that Gods wrath is on the unrepentant..
The NT message of the LORD Jesus Christ is the Same.. Salvation through the Atonement of the LORD Jesus is by believing Jesus and acknowledging ones need for the Atonement He secured on the cross to save one from the eternal wrath of God..
The OT was a teaching process showing how mankind lacked the ability to live up to the perfect standards of God and thus set up people to embrace the solution of the gift of salvation through the Atonement of Jesus..
The NT message of the LORD Jesus Christ is the Same.. Salvation through the Atonement of the LORD Jesus is by believing Jesus and acknowledging ones need for the Atonement He secured on the cross to save one from the eternal wrath of God..
The OT was a teaching process showing how mankind lacked the ability to live up to the perfect standards of God and thus set up people to embrace the solution of the gift of salvation through the Atonement of Jesus..
It would seem that it's a matter of "perception." You perceive him to be unforgiving and wrathful in the OT. But, remember who His word is given to and for? It's for his vessels of mercy.
Look what he says through Isaiah the Prophet: (emphasis mine)
Isaiah 43:3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.
4 Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.
This is glorious and precious, yet hard core doctrine. God has fashioned vessels of wrath for our ransom. He went to extreme length ultimately sacrificing our Lord Jesus for us. The concept begins in the Old Testament that there is a grievous price for our redemption, one he was willing to give.
Look what he says through Isaiah the Prophet: (emphasis mine)
Isaiah 43:3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.
4 Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.
This is glorious and precious, yet hard core doctrine. God has fashioned vessels of wrath for our ransom. He went to extreme length ultimately sacrificing our Lord Jesus for us. The concept begins in the Old Testament that there is a grievous price for our redemption, one he was willing to give.
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