Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

So do you now agree that those people do see Christ returning not just seeing a sign?

So let's take a careful look at 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18:

A MESSAGE OF COMFORT TO CHRISTIANS
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep [THOSE WHO DIED IN CHRIST], that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Note: Some Christians in Thessalonica were grieving greatly for their loved ones who had died. They had probably forgotten what had been taught and were not sure what would happen to them.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
Note: The souls and spirits of believers go directly to Heaven when they die. But God has promised to resurrect all His saints. And this "bringing" by Christ is to bring those souls with Him at the Resurrection/Rapture so that they may receive their glorious immortal bodies and return to Heaven.

15 For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [PRECEDE =GO AHEAD OF] them which are asleep.
Note: The first question to ask is "What is this coming of the Lord?" and the answer is found in John 14:1-3 and in 1 John 3:1-3. This coming of the Lord is strictly for the perfecting of His saints, that He may gather them unto Himself and take them to Heaven. When Paul says that he is stating this "by the Word of the Lord" he means that (a) this is divine revelation and (b) this is guaranteed by God Himself. At the same time he is joining together the Resurrection and Rapture as one event. Therefore he says that the saints who are alive at that time will not precede (or go ahead of) the ones who are coming with Christ from Heaven, and will then return to Heaven in their glorified bodies.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Note: Now Paul gives us a step-by-step description of the Resurrection/Rapture.
The Lord Jesus Christ will personally descend from Heaven. The shout may refer to either (a) a summons by Christ Himself or (b) a proclamation by the archangel Michael that Christ is coming, following which he will give a trumpet blast as a summons. In any event "the trump of God" (also called "the last trump") has absolutely no connection to the seventh trumpet of the 7th seal of Revelation (which is all about wrath and judgment). When it says that "the dead in Christ shall rise first" this is consistent with the fact that the living saints will not precede the saints who had died. So the Resurrection will be the first event (all of which will be within nanoseconds as you will note in 1 Corinthians 15).

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Note: Now that Paul has addressed the Resurrection, he focuses on the Rapture, which is described as "caught up together" (Gk harpagesometha from harpazo). The Latin for that phrase is "rapiemur" from which we get the word Rapture. So now the living saints will be perfected, and also transformed in order to receive glorious immortal bodies (as described in 1 Cor 15). The rapture of Enoch prefigured this event. And then they will join the resurrected saints to MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. Now this is critical to understand that Paul is not talking about the Second Coming of Christ, when the Lord descends to earth for the battle of Armageddon. This is a totally distinct and different event, which is the culmination of the salvation of the saints. "And so shall we ever be with the Lord" means that everyone will be heading back to Heaven for the Marriage of the Lamb and then to remain with Christ for eternity.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
So now you can see that these are words of comfort, and say nothing about the Tribulation or the Great Tribulation (which are reserved for the unbelieving, the ungodly, and the wicked).

Reread my post and the scriptures.

You'll notice the rapture is set in context of the second coming.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We more or less have the same understanding of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 aside from the major differences. You say the rapture is not the second coming, yet verse 16 says "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

Verse 16 mentions the return of Christ, the trump of God, and the first resurrection. We can disagree that the last trump is the 7th Trumpet of Revelation because I don't need it to prove otherwise right now.

Switching focus to the first resurrection. The first resurrection occurs after the great tribulation, just before the millennial kingdom, and it includes martyred saints from the great tribulation:

Revelation 20:4-6
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Anyway, the narrative you produced is a literal impossibility because when the Lord descends from heaven with a shout/trump, and the dead in Christ rise, it's the first resurrection after the great tribulation. Again, we which are alive and remain (non deceased saints in Earth) will be caught up.

The first resurrection and rapture occur immediately after the tribulation when He returns again, just as Jesus stated in Matthew 24:29-31.

@Nehemiah6 look closely at 1 Thess 4 :13-18... It doesn't actually say the raptured saints return to heaven where God's throne is. Just something to be aware of.

That, I cannot say. Matthew wrote "They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, ... ." While the Greek book of Matthew says "ἐπὶ τῶν νεφελῶν" (upon the clouds), Luke wrote "εν νεφελη" (in a cloud). The meaning of this is vague to say the least, and it may well require your "spiritual vision" to discern its fulfillment.

Moreover, "ἐπὶ" can be translated as "over / above," and if Jesus were to be above the cloud then, how would you be able to see him past the cloud? All of that should be considered along with the fact that, when a "cloud" is used of God, it represents His glory and presence. (That's not to say we absolutely won't see physical clouds. There have been cases where physical clouds appeared, and thus we have the definition of it.)

There are multiple harvests in the Jewish calendar.

Barley
Wheat
Fruit

The Barley Harvest (Passover time of the year) was fulfilled upon Jesus Resurrection, when the graves opened up and old testament saints were resurrected before Ascencion.

The Wheat Harvest (Pentecost time of the year) is the Church. The true bride of Christ. This harvest is pre-tribulation and this event will plunge the rest of the world into the Great Tribulation.

The Fruit Harvest (Feast of Trumpets/Atonement time of the year) is for believing Israel. They too will be raptured but this is at the end of the tribulation.

If you quote in Matthew 24v29 "After the tribulation of those days..." and use this to assert that the rapture only happens after the tribulation, then you need to understand the Harvest calendar more clearly. This refers to Israels rapture (Mt24v29-31 refers to Israel's rapture). Whereas the CHURCH rapture is shown in Matthew 24v36-44.

Look at the conditions on the earth contrasting these two snatching away events. The one is AFTER the tribulation with all of its cosmic events. The other is as a thief in the night, taking the world by surprise (see verse 39).

If you have eyes to see this, God will grant you to see it.

There is nothing called "barley harvest" in the Law, but there is "feast of firstfruits," which I think was fulfilled with Jesus Resurrection (bcs he was the firstfruit from the dead).
There is nothing called "wheat harvest" in the Law, but there is the "feast of weeks" which is the feast of Sabuot which is the Pentecost. So this harvest began with Acts 2 where the disciples received the holy oil, the Holy Spirit, to give free-will offerings according to how the Lord blesses you (Deu 16), but it may not be completed because Leviticus 23 says you need to offer "seven lambs without blemish" and "one young bullock and two rams." And I get the impression that the seven lambs = the Seven Churches of Revelation.
Again, there is nothing called the "feast of trumpets" in the Law, but there is a day of rest, a memorial of shouting or blasting of horns (Lev 23:23) although you do need to bring an offering made by fire (which are humans). It potentially illustrates the Day of the Lord, before which the Resurrection is expected to happen.
It is actually accurate because Jesus himself asserted in a parable of weeds, saying, "Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat into my barn.’ " So the weeds and the wheat must be together until He returns, and the Return is after the tribulation.

Looks like you will not abandon your bizarre ideas. Therefore there is no need for further comment. You have received a clear exposition of that passage.

These aren't bizarre ideas, to be honest. It's orthodox Christian doctrine and the earliest held view of eschatology. It's what the Bible literally says. You've received a clear exposition as well. I guess we will just have to disagree.

I really do like almost everything else I've seen you say though. Eschatology is probably the only thing we see differently on.

Are you saying that we will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord and then immediately brought back down to earth?

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

. https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/encyclopedia-of-the-bible/Barley-Harvest

I know so little about these end times. What little I do know, I kind say. As far as I understand, the saints returning with Jesus are in their glorified bodies. The ones yet to be gathered who are still alive when he comes he will call them to him and will at that time, give them their glorified bodies.

Now anyone here that understands this more than me will please, certainly chime in here as well.

Not immediately brought back down, but as far as the text goes they just meet the Lord in the air.

I think they'll follow Jesus, the rider on the white horse, back down to "smite the nations" just before the millennial kingdom in which Jesus rules with an "iron scepter."

Revelation 19:14-15
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Hello pumpkinbread,

Well, I continue to list this basic principle as to why the gathering of the church is a separate event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. Regarding this, Isaiah says makes the following prophecy:

"Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted.

But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed."

Obviously, the prophecy above is about Christ. His punishment brought us (believers) peace. Jesus took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely on behalf of every believer. When we believed, we were credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. God's time of wrath which is quickly approaching, must take place prior to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. In fact, it is not until after the 7th bowl has been poured out that the Lord will return to the earth to end the age. Therefore, since God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer and His wrath must take place and be completed before He returns to the earth, then believers in Christ must be gathered from of the earth prior to the onset of said wrath.

Gathering of the church = Christ descending to the air and believers being caught up to meet Him with the Lord taking the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us, as revealed in John 14:1-3

The Lord's return to the earth = Jesus descends from heaven to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom. As He is descending, the angels will go throughout the earth and gather the wicked which is the 'one taken' group. ' The beast and false prophet will be captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire. And Satan will be thrown into and sealed in the Abyss for a thousand years. (Matt.24:29-31, Rev.19:20, 20:1-3)

Consider the Lord's promise:

"My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."

So basically, Jesus is saying that after He ascended, that He was going back to the Father's house which is in heaven and that He was going to prepare places for every believer. Then at the appointed time, He would come back to get us and take us back to those places that He prepared for us in the Father's house, which again would be in heaven. 1 Thess.4:16-17 and 1 Cor.15:51-53 are detailed accounts of the promise in John 14:1-3.

At the gathering of the church, the Lord does not return to the surface of the earth, but calls up the dead and the living who meet Him in the air. In opposition, at the second coming, the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and the church and His angels will be with Him.

At the event of the gathering of the church, it is to gather believers and return to heaven. In opposition, at the second coming, Christ returns to the earth to end the age, slay the wicked and establish His millennial kingdom.

Both events take place at different times and have different purposes. The biggest error by expositors is not recognizing that they are two separate events and thereby interpreting them as being the same event and taking place at the same time and thus their error. For example:

THIS EVENT
"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

IS NOT THE SAME AS THIS EVENT
"Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. d 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

We have Revelation 19:6-8 showing that the church as the bride, as already attending the wedding of the Lamb in heaven prior to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age:

"“Hallelujah!

For our Lord God Almighty reigns.

Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory!

For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.

Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.”

================================================================
Then in verse 14, we see the bride referred to as the armies in heaven and wearing the same fine linen that she will have been given at the wedding and following the Lord out of heaven to fight against the beast and the kings of the world gathered for Armageddon. In further support of this, we have the following:

"They (beast and ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”


The scripture above is referring to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. The 'called, chosen and faithful followers' will be the church who will have previously been changed immortal and caught up to heaven and will be returning with the Lord to the earth. Regarding our returning with the Lord, Jude says the following:

"Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

In order for those saints to come with the Lord, they would already have to have been with the Lord. This corresponds to Rev.19:14 where those armies follow Christ out of heaven riding on white horses.

I have many, many more scriptural proofs, but I think that I have made it clear.

That's because it is!

That period of God's wrath goes by several titles:

* The tribulation/great tribulation

* The Day of the Lord (too many to list)

* The hour of trial (Rev.3:10)

* The day of vengeance of our God (Isaiah 61:2)

This time of wrath will be seven years in length and will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and with the plagues of the two witnesses

The idea did not come from nowhere, but came from studying scripture and thereby understanding the timing and all related events.

The seven years of God's wrath is established in Daniel 9:27, which is divided into two 3 1/2 year segments. The first 3 1/2 years is initiated by that ruler, the antichrist establishing a seven year agreement with Israel and others. In the middle of the seven years, the abomination is set up in the holy place and is quoted by Jesus in Matt.24:15. This event is the middle point. From that time the beast will cause the sacrifices and offerings that Israel will have been performing and will set up that abomination which will cause the desolation of Jerusalem. It is during the last 3 1/2 years that the woman/Israel will be cared for out in the wilderness during that last 3 1/2 years (Rev.12:6, 14). It is also at this time when the beast will be given authority to make war and conquer the Gentile saints who will have come to believe in Christ.

God's wrath will be completed at the end of the seven years and after the 7th bowl has been poured out, where at which time Christ will return to the earth with His church and angels and will establish His millennial kingdom.

Those who believe that the Lord will gather His church after His wrath, are not looking for the imminent return of the Lord, but are looking for God's wrath to take place first. That's not what we are supposed to be watching for.

In opposition, the church is like the good man of the house who is watching for the thief so that he can't break into His house, always watching and ready. Consequently, if the Lord was not going to gather His church until after His wrath, then His appearing to gather us could not be an imminent event, because God's wrath would have to take place first. If I was on the earth, I could follow the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments like a road map. I would pretty much know when the Lord would be returning. As soon as I saw the results of the 7th bowl bowl judgement, I would be prepared for the Lord's arrival, looking up.

However, God does not punish the righteous with the wicked and is therefore anther reason why we cannot and will not be on the earth for God's wrath.

It just escapes me as to the reason God must take the church "out of the way" but then is able to place His mark upon the 144,000 so that they are not hurt by the bowls of wrath.

Anyone who's studied this knows (or should know) that when John Nelson Darby was inventing his dispensationalism he face a dilemma. He believed the church age would end and a new age—or dispensation—would begin in which God would once again turn His attention to the Jews. But what would bring about the end of the church age? The pre-tribulation rapture of course. He didn't get this idea by studying the scripture and having a revelation from the Lord. He was actively looking for something to fit his preconceived notions of dispensationalism.

The pre-trib rapture isn't taught in scripture. It's a pure fabrication. And the fact that so many people have bought into it proves people don't understand God's word.

According to your theory, we are caught up in the clouds in the air, jump on white horses and turn around and follow the Lord back down to earth.

When does the JSOC occur? The marriage between of the Lamb and His bride?

The seal of God protects them from being deceived. It is unrelated to the wrath of God because they wouldn't be targets of that and therefore need no protection from it.