Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

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ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,020
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#81
I'll just re-affirm that the seal on the 144k protects them from being deceived and taking the mark. By the time the wrath of God arrives, these will be with Christ so aren't in any fear or danger of the wrath of God.



Saved for Gods wrath


Rev 9:4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

We're just looking at the same thing from different perspectives. You are looking at wrath with relevance to the absence of the mark of the beast while I am looking at its relevance to the presence of God's mark that is effective in similarity to the Passover.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,020
1,268
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#82
So, I ask this question to all:

There seems to be this common belief that the bride of Christ is "the church"
The bride of Christ is the church as well as NJ.

Christians are the bride:

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Here we are told plainly that the example of a man and his wife being of one flesh is about Christ and the church.


Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God


Here again it is Christians that will marry Christ who was raised from the dead.


2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.


Spoken to Christians, the church, being presented as Virgins in a spiritual sense.


Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev_17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.


If a woman "Babylon" also called a city can represent a group of unsaved people then certainly the bride of Christ, a group of saved people, can be represented as a city "New Jerusalem" as well.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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#83
Those who are alive and remain are caught up to be with the Lord. They are part of the bride of Christ.

1. The Lord descends in the clouds and raises those who have died in Christ.
2. Those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them who have been risen.
3. Both groups make up all that are in Christ. They receive their glorified bodies. This is the adoption.
4. The body of Christ will stand and give an account for labor at the JSOC.
5. The marriage ceremony occurs.
6. Christ returns to earth with His bride.
Revelation 20:4-6 says that the First Resurrection contains martyred saints from the great tribulation. 1 Thess. 4:13-18 says the first resurrection occurs at the return of Christ. That would place the marriage/supper after the great tribulation, just before the millennial kingdom.

Great white throne judgment doesn't even come after 1,000 years later. Revelation 20:11-15

But the JSOC and GWTJ occur in proximity to each other:

Matthew 25:32-33
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

What I am getting at is I think the order you produced is a little bit off. This is what i think:

1. The Lord descends in the clouds and raises those who have died in Christ.
2. Those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them who have been risen.
3. Both groups make up all that are in Christ. They receive their glorified bodies. This is the adoption.
4. The marriage ceremony occurs.
5. Christ returns to earth with His bride for millennial kingdom.
6. The body of Christ will stand and give an account for labor at the JSOC.
7. New Heaven, New Earth. The rest of eternity begins where only righteousness dwells.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,020
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#84
I hold to remnant theology, wherein scripture says in Romans 11:26, "And in this manner all Israel will be saved...' is preceded by the components (which we are not to be ignorant of) that make up "all" Israel [the wild and natural olive branches (re) grafted into the Root). If it is otherwise, then the use of the term "all" would imply every single natural branch is saved.
Oh? Are these Israelites saved as well?

Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,159
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#85
Oh? Are these Israelites saved as well?

Mat 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
the train of thought to the clarification of my conclusion continues in post #80
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,020
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#86
the train of thought to the clarification of my conclusion continues in post #80
So the idea of "all" Israel being saved is not including faithless Israel? Only the newer concept of a Christian Israel? If so, then I agree with that.
 
Feb 26, 2021
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#87
The seven years of God's wrath is established in Daniel 9:27,
The last week was actually half or fully fulfilled at the point of Jesus Crucifixion, it seems. (Donkey arrival-crucifixion = 3.5 years = the midst of the week.)
* The day of vengeance of our God (Isaiah 61:2)
What Paul says about the vengeance of God: (2 Thess 1:5-8)
  • "All this is clear evidence of God’s righteous judgment. And so you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 After all, it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant relief to you who are oppressed and to us as well. This will take place when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels 8 in blazing fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. "
Why go through tribulation? Because of the name of Jesus. And Paul calls to mind God's vengeance is to those who disobey the gospel.
On the contrary, Revelation 14:12 calls for the perseverance of obedient saints, effectively proving that tribulation is not God's wrath.
* The hour of trial (Rev.3:10)
  • 3:10 also says, "Because you have kept My command to persevere, ... ".
  • 3:12 He says, "The one who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of My God"
The one who overcomes what?
  • 2:10 He says, "Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Look, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison to test you, and you will suffer tribulation for ten days."
Do you realize that the very 7 churches that you brought up are already undergoing a form of tribulation?
This time of wrath will be seven years in length and will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and with the plagues of the two witnesses
This claim itself, I find faulty for just one passage of Revelation 14
  • 14:7 says after the 144k redemption, " Fear God and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come. "
  • 14:9 says "If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath."
It seems, according to Revelation, the judgement of God is to those who worship the beast, and not Christians who suffer for Christ's sake.

I can list 2 more in which I find faulty the idea "wrath = 7 yrs".
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,212
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#88
Left Behind Secret Rapture is a lie made up by Satan.

Remember, Left Behind Secret Rapture and rapture are two different things.

The bottom link talks about the rapture and what is rapture.

http://testallthings.com/2010/05/31/when-is-the-rapture/


The Word of God says that Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation.
Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, John 17:15


We don't know the exact day, time and hour of the Real Jesus Christ 2nd Coming, but we do know the signs.

Before the Real Jesus Christ comes back: Great earthquake that shakes Earth and Heaven, sun shall be turned into darkness, moon into blood, stars shall withdraw their shining, heaven rolled like a scroll, every mountain and island moved out of their places, great hail out of heaven pelting on some of Satan's children on earth.

Isaiah 13:9-13, Ezekiel 38:19-23, Joel 2:10-11, Joel 2:30-32, Haggai 2:6, 21, Matthew 24:29-34, Matthew 24:35, Mark 13:24-29, Mark 13:31, Acts 2:19-20, Luke 21:25-33 and Hebrews 12:26-28, Revelation 6:12-17, Compare Daniel 7:13-14, 27, Ezekiel 13:13, Revelation 11:15-19, Revelation 16:17-21

http://repent5610.blogspot.com/2012/12/there-is-no-secret-rapture.html

If you are interested in freedom from sin and how do we receive the Holy Spirit? read below.
After God gave me the Holy Spirit, I found proof that TV, movies, novels, music, video games and computer games are all sins, except Christian stuff that don’t have sins like sermons and Christian music words that gives messages. I found out that in them there is lying, stealing, adultery (Matthew 5:28 looking at someone with lust is adultery), fornication which is sex before marriage, revenge, murder, jealousy, pride=self-pity, hypocrisy, using God’s name in vain as a curse word, they are all idols (breaks 2nd Commandment) because most people can’t live without them and they love them more than God and more. Just read the 10 commandments for a list.


1 John 2:15 King James Version (KJV)


15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 New King James Version

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.


Now I will be preaching about how to receive the Holy Spirit and be 100% going to Heaven.

First, it’s only by the grace of God that he gives you faith in Jesus Christ in order to give up your sins. It’s only by the grace of God that he leads you to pray to him to destroy all your evil desires of watching TV or any sinful desires. When you pray to God to destroy all your evil desires of watching TV or sinful desires (Romans 6:6-7 and Galatians 5:24), Satan will intervene and extremely tempt you in watching the TV. But if it’s God’s will and if you are one of God’s elects, you will overcome it and God will destroy all your evil desires of watching TV. After God has destroyed all your evil desires of watching TV and if you are one of God’s elects, you receive the joy of the Holy Spirit for about 40 minutes. After the joy wears off, all existence of boredom no longer exists and you no longer burn out (psychology) anymore. That is when you have received the Holy Spirit.

Then it’s by the grace of God that he forgives you of your sins, as you confess and repent of your sins throughout your life which is called sanctification. But you can watch Christian stuff that don’t have sins (Like sermons) because that helps you grow more mature as a Christian spiritually and for more information about this sermon, go to spreadthegospel59.wordpress.com then go to
The short version of “To be free from sin (sin deceives and hurts everyone) and how do we receive the Holy Spirit?”


Why does God hate sin? | GotQuestions.org
What does it mean that “you were bought with a price” (1 Corinthians 6:20; 7:23)? | GotQuestions.org
Sin Will Never Make You Happy
(What does the Bible say about hypocrisy? | GotQuestions.org)
Gives thanks to God, that you are free from sin (sin deceives=never satisfied no matter how many times you do it,
gives pain, makes you guilty, go from bad to worse)
if you are one of God’s elect, to fight off self-pity is to give thanks to God for everything. What does the Bible say about self-pity? | GotQuestions.org
Is eternal security a “license” to sin? | GotQuestions.org


The reason why am hated for no reason since I were physically born and never fit in is because am one of God’s elects. (John 15:18-19)


Just so you know Jesus had to carry all of God’s elects sins and endure the punishment for God’s elects sins which is Hellfire spiritually, which is extreme love and mercy.
Go to the bottom website, for better explanation.
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/jesus-eternal-punishment-hours/
Maybe it's just me but I have seen more fear of a post tribulation rapture than a pre one or secret one. personally it doesn't matter to me whether it's a pre mid or post one because doctrines can be interpreted they can be misquoted they can be twisted or taken out of context but the heart that chases after him with all their mind body and soul can have none of these in their hearts.

I believe in a pre trib rapture but my heart is also prepared for whatever comes I think that is more important than what type of rapture you believe in and this topic is beaten past blue in all of the world and I have yet to see anyone change their minds from it so honestly if it doesn't bring fruit it doesn't need proving or disproving God is going to act how he sees fit regardless what we call truth or not.
It's more important to have our hearts set deeply in him than it is to have the right rapture after all there is no fear in Christ if people are in fear it's not the doctrine of the rapture they need to have right it's their relationship with God
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,159
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#89
So the idea of "all" Israel being saved is not including faithless Israel? Only the newer concept of a Christian Israel? If so, then I agree with that.
Yes, I mean no, not including those that continue in unbelief. I agree. Although, you may not agree with my idea of the Christian Gentile being included in this particular reference to "all Israel," not that I would call myself Jewish though. *well,... unless you count the .1% Ashkenazi in my lineage.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,020
1,268
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#90
Yes, I mean no, not including those that continue in unbelief. I agree. Although, you may not agree with my idea of the Christian Gentile being included in this particular reference to "all Israel," not that I would call myself Jewish though.

I agree the Gentiles grafted to Israel become members of Israel just as they become members of the body of Christ and the bride of Christ.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,376
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#91
So, I ask this question to all:

There seems to be this common belief that the bride of Christ is "the church", but while it is theologically, she's technically Jerusalem according to John's Revelations.

  • So what do you guys mean by "the church"?
  • As some people claim that some believers will be taken up for marriage, and the rest will go through tribulation and won't be eligible for marriage, do you exclude a certain group of people from "the church"?
So many people have made the same claim as you have above, not realizing that Israel is already the WIFE of God, not the bride. Big difference! Israel is already married to God and the church is the bride and will be made the wife at the wedding of the Lamb, which will take place in heaven after the dead and living of the church is caught up to meet the Lord in the air and is taken back to the Father's house.

My prayer is that God would open up your understanding to these truths so that you would stop offering up these false apologetics and stope rejecting the truth.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
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#92
Based on what can you claim this?
1 Thessalonians
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Revelations
19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
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#93
The ones yet to be gathered who are still alive when he comes he will call them to him and will at that time, give them their glorified bodies.

Now anyone here that understands this more than me will please, certainly chime in here as well.
Not sure if they will have glorified bodies. The Bible seems to imply that children may be born during the Millennium.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,376
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#94
The last week was actually half or fully fulfilled at the point of Jesus Crucifixion, it seems. (Donkey arrival-crucifixion = 3.5 years = the midst of the week.)
That is false! The prophecy says, that there will be seven 'seven year' periods (49 years) for the restoring and rebuilding Jerusalem. Then after sixty two seven year periods (434 years) the Messiah would be cut off, which is Christ Crucified. The Lord was cut off at the end of the sixty nineth seven and there remains one seven year period left which God will fulfill leading up to to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. The prophecy puts Christ as being crucified prior to the onset of that last seven year period, which yet future.


What Paul says about the vengeance of God: (2 Thess 1:5-8)
  • "All this is clear evidence of God’s righteous judgment. And so you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 After all, it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant relief to you who are oppressed and to us as well. This will take place when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels 8 in blazing fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. "
First, stop pigeonholing the word "vengeance" because the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are also God's vengeance and not just when He returns to the earth. And second, all you are doing is repeating something you have heard or read, because I've seen this same claim many times. The problem with it is that in their haste to try and offer this false apologetic up, is that they overlook that Paul includes himself and those with him when he says, "and to us as well." You know very well that Paul is not alive today to experience Christ coming from heaven with His angels in blazing fire.

Please stop looking for false apologetics and be open to the truth.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
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#95
I know so little about these end times. What little I do know, I kind say. As far as I understand, the saints returning with Jesus are in their glorified bodies. The ones yet to be gathered who are still alive when he comes he will call them to him and will at that time, give them their glorified bodies.

Now anyone here that understands this more than me will please, certainly chime in here as well.
Those great tribulation saints who die during that time, will be resurrected in their immortal and glorified bodies when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, as revealed in Rev.20:4-6. Those saints who make it alive through the entire period of wrath, will enter into the millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies, along with the remnant of Israel and will repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#97
"HatedForNoReason" eh? Sounds more like "Hatedforagoodreason".
 
Apr 26, 2021
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#98
Those great tribulation saints who die during that time, will be resurrected in their immortal and glorified bodies when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, as revealed in Rev.20:4-6. Those saints who make it alive through the entire period of wrath, will enter into the millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies, along with the remnant of Israel and will repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom.
You're kind of losing me with this whole repopulate part.

And as for the tribulation period, I think it's been ongoing for centuries. So there are no saints that suffer through it and make it out alive at the end. I think the tribulation is the slow decay and apostacy of the churches and world religions. There are passages and scriptures that give me this impression. But, I really don't think these end times and millennialism stuff is in my head. I don't get it. I don't understand it.
 
Apr 26, 2021
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#99
Not sure if they will have glorified bodies. The Bible seems to imply that children may be born during the Millennium.
That's kind of going back to basics, "be fruitful and multiply."

Or ...

The husbandmen scenario, the tillers of the ground, the laborers of the harvest. It is perhaps in that spiritual activity that more "children are born."
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Those great tribulation saints who die during that time, will be resurrected in their immortal and glorified bodies when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, as revealed in Rev.20:4-6. Those saints who make it alive through the entire period of wrath, will enter into the millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies, along with the remnant of Israel and will repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom.
I'll just leave this here...

Matthew 22:30
30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.