Neither James (the Lord’s brother), Barnabas, Timothy or Silvanus were counted among The Twelve...

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Aaron56

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Jul 12, 2021
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#41
Do you have a verse for that? I did a search of his name and only two mentions came up...
As one of the Twelve Apostles of the Lamb in Revelation 21.
 

Aaron56

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#42
The Twelve are:
Simon, whom He also named Peter
Andrew his brother
James
John
Philip
Bartholomew
Matthew
Thomas
James the son of Alphaeus
Simon who was called the Zealot
Judas the son of James
Matthias
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#43
As one of the Twelve Apostles of the Lamb in Revelation 21.
Which verse? As I said, the sole two mentions I found were both in Acts 1, verses 23 and 26.

My apologies for erroneously saying Acts 12 earlier :)
 

Aaron56

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#44
Matthias , et al were included within the twelve in Acts 6:1-6

"Now at this time while the disciples were increasing in number, a complaint arose on the part of the Hellenistic Jews against the native Hebrews, because their widows were being overlooked in the daily serving of food. So the twelve summoned the congregation of the disciples and said, “It is not desirable for us to neglect the word of God in order to serve tables."
"Therefore, brethren, select from among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may put in charge of this task. But we will devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word.” The statement found approval with the whole congregation; and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch. And these they brought before the apostles; and after praying, they laid their hands on them."
 

Aaron56

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#45
Paul even numbers Matthias as part of the twelve in 1 Corinthians 15:5

“..and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.”
 

Aidan1

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Mar 17, 2021
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#46
Typically missionaries are sent to plant churches according to the denomination of their home church. Apostles are sent by the Lord to expand the kingdom of God, explain mysteries, and establish elders.
Apostles are missionaries, they are doing the same. What you mean with " explain mysteries" ?
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#48
I've been curious about rev 21:14 for a while. I believe the 12th name will be Paul. The reason has to do with the Great Commission.
In all the passages that mentions the GC, there were only the 11 present. And Paul was given the same commission. Acts 9:15.

And Paul saw the Lord. Not only that, he was taken up to the 3rd heaven and taught directly by the Lord.

And Paul became the most prolific apostle (evangelist) in history.

If Mathias has his name of one of the foundations, I will give refunds. :D
If you consider Paul's epistles to be inspired, you should take note that Paul said that Jesus appeared to the TWELVE before appearing to Him. Since the gospels record that Judas hanged himself, how can you make that fit with the idea that Judas saw the resurrected Christ? According to the apostles in Acts 1, Matthias was a witness of the resurrection.
 

presidente

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#49
2 mentions only of Matthias in the Bible, both in Acts 12, never to be heard of, about, or from again!

In fact, we heard nothing from him at all...

Pales terribly in comparison to Paul...
By this criteria, do you reject the idea of Bartholemew or Simon Zealotes being apostles, too?
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#50
I would say that he replaced Judas iskarioth.
Matthias election was based on the will of the Eleven, but not from God so far.
While Pauls call was from the Lord itself.
Proverbs 16:33
The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.
(ESV)
 
Jun 9, 2021
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#51
If you consider Paul's epistles to be inspired, you should take note that Paul said that Jesus appeared to the TWELVE before appearing to Him. Since the gospels record that Judas hanged himself, how can you make that fit with the idea that Judas saw the resurrected Christ? According to the apostles in Acts 1, Matthias was a witness of the resurrection.
Which is why I asked this earlier:

Have you ever wondered if Christ spoke to Judas after His own death after Judas died?

Just to show Judas Who, He, the WORD, really was like in His Power, and not yet full power.
Judas fulfilled the Will of God!
Christ Died for our Sins!
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#52
When did Jesus say to wait to appoint a twelfth apostle? I am not familiar with any scripture that says that.
Nor did I say any such thing :) Jesus simply instructed them to wait. It was actually a command ;)

On one occasion, while He was eating with them, He gave them this command: "Do not leave
Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about."
 
Jun 9, 2021
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#53
This article is claiming Judas saw the Resurrected Christ and then commits suicide sometime afterwards: It's about Paul saying Christ saw the [12]:

1 Corinthians 15:3-5
"For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve......."

For many, this scripture has been a stumbling block since, according to tradition, Judas’ death happened before the crucifixion and therefore, if this tradition was right, then here the Word of God should have written "eleven" instead of "twelve". The purpose of this article is, among others, to throw light to this misunderstood, due to traditional beliefs, scripture.

The investigation below starts by confirming that the "twelve" of the above passage are the well known "twelve" that included Judas. After that, we continue with a detailed analysis of the gospel records that refer to the post-resurrection appearance of Jesus that happened at the evening of the "first day of the week". Though this appearance is not the appearance to the twelve, it is very important to examine it since, as we will see, Judas was there when it happened. Apart from this, the examination of this appearance is necessary for a good understanding of the gospel record of the appearance to the twelve. After that, the investigation will continue with the examination of the traditional view concerning the timing of Judas’ death and the passage of Matthew 27:3-5 that is used to support it. As we will see from our investigation Judas’s death did not happen at the time that tradition puts it. Instead Judas was alive and saw the resurrected Lord, only to commit suicide sometime after this.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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#54
Nor did I say any such thing :) Jesus simply instructed them to wait. It was actually a command ;)

On one occasion, while He was eating with them, He gave them this command: "Do not leave
Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about."
Wait for the promise, not to appoint a replacement for Judas.
 

Aaron56

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Jul 12, 2021
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#56
Apostles are missionaries, they are doing the same. What you mean with " explain mysteries" ?
1 Corinthians 4:1 "Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God."
 
Mar 4, 2020
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#57
1st qualification: “men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning with the baptism of John”
2nd qualification; “..to that day when He was taken up from us…” So, he also had to witness Jesus’ ascension.
I don't think that witnessing Jesus' ascension is a prerequisite to apostleship. I think they are only describing what their experience was being with Jesus.

Seeing the resurrection Jesus is a pre-requisite for apostleship as far as I can tell. It doesn't mean being in the tomb with Jesus at the moment He resurrected because no one is said to have been in there with Him. It means seeing Jesus post-resurrection. Paul saw Jesus post-resurrection on the road to Damascus, just before he was temporarily blinded, and Paul was ordained by Jesus. This satisfies the requirement for apostleship.
 

Aaron56

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#58
Well, yes, they were commanded to wait :) There was no instruction to cast lots to replace Judas...
You assume "wait" meant "do nothing".

The Lord simply commanded them not to depart Jerusalem but "wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

After they chose Matthias they were baptized with the Holy Spirit. From then on, the record of Acts and of Paul contain "the twelve" which could mean nothing other than the twelve apostles who came out of the upper room. This fulfilled the scriptures Peter noted and their number functioned to confirm that the proclamation (that Jesus was, in fact, the Son of God) was legally binding and true by Jewish standards.

There is so much resistance to this because of doctrinal tradition and, perhaps, because of our bias toward celebrity. Sure Paul was important, but he was not one the the twelve. Unlike us, God is no respecter of persons. I also think there is a bit of "God works in mysterious ways" mentality that gets in the way of our understanding. So we are apt to accept church doctrine without searching it out for ourselves. God is actually our Father, not an author of confusion, and He tells us plainly in scripture what is true. Certainly, "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter and the glory of kings to search it out" but our diligent search comes with a promise: God's reward.

Good Night Friends,

Aaron56
 

Aaron56

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Jul 12, 2021
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#59
I don't think that witnessing Jesus' ascension is a prerequisite to apostleship. I think they are only describing what their experience was being with Jesus.

Seeing the resurrection Jesus is a pre-requisite for apostleship as far as I can tell. It doesn't mean being in the tomb with Jesus at the moment He resurrected because no one is said to have been in there with Him. It means seeing Jesus post-resurrection. Paul saw Jesus post-resurrection on the road to Damascus, just before he was temporarily blinded, and Paul was ordained by Jesus. This satisfies the requirement for apostleship.
Here is the full quote:
21 “Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”

Paul did not meet the standard. He was not even converted yet.

A witness has to actually be a witness of the event he or she confirms. The Apostles of the Lamb could only testify, truthfully, if they had witnessed what Peter proclaimed. The other apostles, Paul, Timothy, Barnabas, Titus, Silvanus... did not have those requirements. Certainly, they must have had the apostolic gift but they were not witnesses of Jesus' ministry or ascension.
 
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#60
Proverbs 16:33
The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.
(ESV)
You can’t just grab that verse and apply it to that particular lot, not every verse speak to every other verse that just happens to sound the same, 😬 there still has to be context so your pretext isn’t your proof text, the fact remains that the decision to cast a lot without the option for God to chose neither of the two put forward remains.