predestination vs freewill

Yes, I'm obviously still learning as well Jerry. My apologies brother for referring to you as a Calvinist. I guess I meant it loosely. I see now that a Christian can believe in one of the Calvinist doctrines and consider oneself part of the reformed tradition and not a Calvinist.

In order to address predestination we must first interpret its meaning in relation to its contextual use and implied meaning, the first question to ask then is, when God uses this term are we to understand predestination as conditional or unconditional? can predestination be resisted for example or is it to be forced upon us ? The premise of irresistibility contradicts the freedom to choose, if we’re not free to choose, then love has no value and obedience becomes redundant, We are rewarded when we choose dependency upon God, instead of self, Gods love Grace and promise of salvation is conditional on our participation, yes we are predestined to receive His Grace as we are to be saved through that Grace, and not works, yet we are still required to accept that Grace by accepting Gods authority over us, and in the surrendering of our free will to Him, when we choose to submit to Gods authority we relinquish self determination, and thereby fulfill obedience to His word, an align ourselves with Christ “Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”
we surrender our will freely in order to accept Gods will for our predestined promise of salvation. Predestination doesn’t contradict free will it’s a promise realised for us when we choose Gods will. as superior to ours.

This Trinitarian step is what’s conditional,

We Must Repent Before God!
We Must Believe in Jesus!
We Will Receive the Holy Spirit!

For the record Eternal security is a lie, every single promise is conditional on our acceptance of it, and obedience to it.

No, can't see that. "this is the work of God" is not logically equivalent to "works God requires ". As I said in my prior, in effect, Jesus was giving them two answers: 1) there is nothing they could do for salvation and, 2) God must do it all



That's funny, that exactly what I was thinking about your reply. Jesus said "this is the work of God". So nothing has been turned around by me. Further, we are unequivocally informed by the Bible that we can NEVER be saved by our works.

I'll repost:
[Rom 4:4 KJV] 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

This verse is in direct conflict with your interpretation of John 6:29 and we know that it is impossible for the Bible to
contradict itself. However the verse complements, and harmonizes precisely with my interpretation of John 6:29.

Based upon it, we can clearly see that it would have been impossible for Jesus to have informed them that work of any kind was/is necessary for salvation.



By His answer, Jesus implicitly corrected their perception and by so doing, gave us all additional information. Where in the verse does it say "you are to do the works that God has for you", because I couldn't find anything close to it there? I think what you've accused me of doing, you have done. Your interpretation cannot be correct because it is impossible that everyone ever born has been offered salvation. If it was offered, where, how and when did it occur?



I have no idea. The opinions of commentators are of no interest to me and I do not follow any. I only place credence in the Bible alone.

Here is the verse I believe he was referring too:

Eph_2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God afore prepared that we should walk in them.

This verse clearly states that we, believers, are God's workmanship. agreeing with Romans 9:18-23. That the believer's Good Works, were prepared before creation began.

This concept of free will is the product of a human thought and not Scripture. Note: a few definitions of the word "free will":

noun

1. the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

2. the ability to be self determinate.

3. to exercise ones desires without constraint.

Man possesses the ability to exercise his/her desires BUT not without constraint and man cannot be said to be self determinate. Only God is self determinate. He does as He pleases and He is His own counsel. What God desires that He does. If man had a "free will", then man would be as god. We would not be subject to God's authority or constraints. Only God is self determinate.

Man's will is constrained in many ways:

1) By his own nature. The "will" cannot act contrary to ones own nature. Please read post #254 for more on this.
2) By providential constraints - such as weather, natural calamity, man-made calamity, and diseases. Ex... Your "will" cannot will you out of these types of constraints. You may choose another path of action because of these constraints but your original choice was altered by them. Only God is above these constraints. He would simply alter them to His will. This is why Scripture says: That God is in control of His Providential Government and we are subject too it.
3) By financial constraints - one cannot choose something that is above their means to purchase or obtain it. I may dream of having a Lear Jet but my "will" will not make it happen. I might determine to have this Jet but my lack of finances is the ultimate determiner. Therefore, my "will" is subject to the financial determiner and it would not make commonsense for me to choose this coarse of action knowing it cannot happen.

I hope you understand what I am getting at here. We as a creation are not self determinate. Ultimately, God is the only one "FREE" to carry out His desires and these desires were in the mind of God from the beginning.

Too believe in self determination - free will - is to make oneself as a god. To be equal with God. This is not only heresy of the worst kind but denies every precept of Holy Scripture. For Scripture says: Man's nature, apart from the "Regenerating" work of the Spirit, is "darkness' and his "will" is towards the things of darkness. Darkness does not choose light. (John 1:5 & 3:19; 2 Cor. 6:14; Col. 3:6,7).

Free-willest argue - that God would not force upon a person something he/she did not choose but yet they miss the point. The "will" of the believer WILL, at the appropriate time, CHOOSE Christ and indeed must do so in order to have Salvation. However, there must be a work of Grace in that ones heart in order to bring about this choice. God often and does alter a persons desires. The heart. The seat of man's desires.

Exo_10:20 But Jehovah hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not let the children of Israel go.
Deu_30:6 And Jehovah thy God will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Pro 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of Jehovah as the watercourses: He turns it whithersoever he will.

Isa 45:5 I am Jehovah, and there is none else; besides me there is no God. I will gird thee, though thou hast not known me;
Isa 45:6 that they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none besides me: I am Jehovah, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create calamity. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.
Isa 45:8 Distil, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, that it may bring forth salvation, and let it cause righteousness to spring up together; I, Jehovah, have created it.
Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that strives with his Maker! a potsherd among the potsherds of the earth! Shall the clay say to him that fashions it, What are you making? or thy work, He has no hands?
Isa 45:10 Woe unto him that says unto a father, What are you begetting? or to a woman, With what are you travailing?

There is a tension in my mind in attempt to grasp these. If there is freewill, it means your actions determine your outcome. If there is predestination, it means no matter what you do, you cant alter the outcome. But both above are mentioned in bible, which contradicts one another. Someone pls enlighten me thanks.

Scripture states that God foreknew and predestined those whom He chose to give eternal life to. The requirement for those people is to have faith from beginning to end. If they turn away from faith, God is not going to force them into eternal life. They are sealed and have the hope of eternal life, if they continue in faith.

Sorry to interrupt but in following your discussion I noticed that you characterize what God has given as being eternal life. I haven't
read all of the posts so sorry if I missed it, but if eternal, how then could be lost since it was eternal ? That is, can someone lose something that was given based upon the promise of it being eternal?

Eternal life and all of the promises given, are dependent upon the believer continuing from faith to faith. Regarding this, consider the following scriptures:

That is, can someone lose something that was given based upon the promise of it being eternal?

Thanks for the clarification. To me though, regarding Eph 2:10, I guess it comes down to the Bible's definition of good works.
I see them as being defined by the following:

[Gal 5:22-24 KJV]
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

[Eph 5:9-10 KJV]
9 (For the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth
10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

How do you define good works?

Regarding Rom 9:23, my version translates it this way:

[Rom 9:23 KJV]
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Prepared for "glory". That is, the vessels of mercy(the elect) being those which God had "afore" prepared unto glory.

There is a difference yes between Free Will and omnipotents I’ve never claimed that one equates the other, of course human free will is contained, by a number of various factors wether this be directly applied by God or part of the mechanics he placed to govern this world, and it’s automation.
After all we are created and so are created to exists within a determined set of parameters, you misconstrued my definition of self determination to include factors outside of my immediate control, to be more accurate even those things within my immediate control are variable based upon my environment and those of effect it,
My point in reference to self determination is indeed subject to the restrictions you’ve stated, with that being said I fail to see how these restrictions alter my thesis on the effects and aspects of free Will as applied by God will, for us to retain individual meaningful choice.

There is a tension in my mind in attempt to grasp these. If there is freewill, it means your actions determine your outcome. If there is predestination, it means no matter what you do, you cant alter the outcome. But both above are mentioned in bible, which contradicts one another. Someone pls enlighten me thanks.

Greetings rogerg,

Eternal life and all of the promises given, are dependent upon the believer continuing from faith to faith. Regarding this, consider the following scriptures:


=============================================================
"But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence—if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard"

"But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are His house, if we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope of which we boast.

"We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end."
===============================================================================================

Our salvation and God's promises are dependent upon having faith from beginning to end.

"But My righteous one will live by faith; and if he might shrink back, My soul does not take pleasure in him."

Shrinking back means turning away from faith, complete apostasy.

This is so wrong in so many ways. Our Salvation is not dependent upon our faith. This is a misunderstanding caused by badly translated verses, such as:

Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; (ASV).

This verse should read: even the righteousness from God out of the faithfulness of Jesus Christ to the ones that are believing....

Our Salvation is out of the faithfulness of Christ not our faith. Our faith cannot bring about righteousness, only Christ could bring that about. Our Justification before God was accomplished, as far as God is concerned, before He ever created. He could do this because nothing could stop Jesus Christ from carrying out His work. Therefore, the Father could look upon the work as completed because of His Son's faithful obedience in time was assured, thus, this Righteousness could be imputed to the Old Testament Saints even though Christ had not yet gone to the cross. Just like Salvation for all of God's chosen people is assured. Not by our actions but by God's faithful work in us. This is why Paul wrote:

Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
Rom 8:30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Every single one of the words that I have in "red" are past tense in the Greek. How is that possible? The Apostle Paul, here in these verses, is pointing us back to the decrees of God before the foundation of the world. As far as God is concerned, Salvation of His Elect is a done deal. This being the case, then who is going to prevent God's will from being carried out?

Isa_42:16 And I will bring the blind by a way that they know not; in paths that they know not will I lead them; I will make darkness light before them, and crooked places straight. These things will I do, and I will not forsake them.

Too many mistakes in Theology are being made because improper consideration is given to Eternity. Your arguments herein, are Temporal based arguments and do not consider the Eternal God. God, who planned all things in his eternal mind, knows all things because He resides in Eternity and is Eternal. Everything that is and will be are with Him in the "ever present now" -- which is Eternity. Eternity is not just a long time but is a sate of being. What God "purposed" in Eternity before He created anything, will be done exactly as he purposed it in time. Nothing can stop it and nothing can alter it. He is God and we are mere pottery.

Therefore, "faith" cannot be lost in God's Elect because the indwelling Holy Spirit will insure that the Elect believer maintains perseverance. Only those individuals, who are not TRUE believers can fall away because their human faith is only temporary.

This is so wrong in so many ways. Our Salvation is not dependent upon our faith. This is a misunderstanding caused by badly translated verses, such as:

Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; (ASV).

This verse should read: even the righteousness from God out of the faithfulness of Jesus Christ to the ones that are believing....

Our Salvation is out of the faithfulness of Christ not our faith. Our faith cannot bring about righteousness, only Christ could bring that about. Our Justification before God was accomplished, as far as God is concerned, before He ever created. He could do this because nothing could stop Jesus Christ from carrying out His work. Therefore, the Father could look upon the work as completed because of His Son's faithful obedience in time was assured, thus, this Righteousness could be imputed to the Old Testament Saints even though Christ had not yet gone to the cross. Just like Salvation for all of God's chosen people is assured. Not by our actions but by God's faithful work in us. This is why Paul wrote:

Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
Rom 8:30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Every single one of the words that I have in "red" are past tense in the Greek. How is that possible? The Apostle Paul, here in these verses, is pointing us back to the decrees of God before the foundation of the world. As far as God is concerned, Salvation of His Elect is a done deal. This being the case, then who is going to prevent God's will from being carried out?

Isa_42:16 And I will bring the blind by a way that they know not; in paths that they know not will I lead them; I will make darkness light before them, and crooked places straight. These things will I do, and I will not forsake them.

Too many mistakes in Theology are being made because improper consideration is given to Eternity. Your arguments herein, are Temporal based arguments and do not consider the Eternal God. God, who planned all things in his eternal mind, knows all things because He resides in Eternity and is Eternal. Everything that is and will be are with Him in the "ever present now" -- which is Eternity. Eternity is not just a long time but is a sate of being. What God "purposed" in Eternity before He created anything, will be done exactly as he purposed it in time. Nothing can stop it and nothing can alter it. He is God and we are mere pottery.

Therefore, "faith" cannot be lost in God's Elect because the indwelling Holy Spirit will insure that the Elect believer maintains perseverance. Only those individuals, who are not TRUE believers can fall away because their human faith is only temporary.

There is a tension in my mind in attempt to grasp these. If there is freewill, it means your actions determine your outcome. If there is predestination, it means no matter what you do, you cant alter the outcome. But both above are mentioned in bible, which contradicts one another. Someone pls enlighten me thanks.

However, "good works" are not just limited to the things you have written here. They would include all aspects of "running the race" that Paul mentions. This would include: Study of the Scriptures, witnessing, defending the Truth of God, keeping our Lords Commandments, helping those in the faith and so on. Good works is a product of Regeneration and God given faith but it is not a path to Salvation, as we know.

Way too many so-called believers today, deny Romans Chapter 9 and it's principle teaching about the Doctrine of Election. A Pastor once said: "You can tell exactly what a person believes by their interpretation of Romans 9". This statement was made in reference to determining if one is truly in the Faith. Therefore, he suggested, If their interpretation on Romans 9 is wrong, then quit wasting your time in talking with them. Romans 9, not only defines the means of Salvation but it elevates the one behind it to the highest heights. The sovereign God of all creation. No true believer can believe that God is not totally Sovereign. That He purposed all things from Eternity, before the foundation of the world and is carrying out those purposes in time.

Anything that detracts from the Glory of God and Christ's Righteousness and attempts to elevate man's ability above his fallen, wretched and corrupt state, should be avoided at all cost. Even the Elect believers, should not forget that our own righteousness is as "filthy rags" before God. Glory be to God that we have the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ in our account.