What are Your Thoughts About Financially Independent Women?

Hey Everyone,

Now I know that the very notion "Financially Independent Women" is going to automatically result in a knee-jerk reaction from some people.

There might even be talk about how such women are Femi-Nazi's, rebellious Jezebels, and enemies of the Christian faith and family. I am very aware that many Christians are against the idea of a woman having a career and making money on her own.

But what about all the single women who become financially independent by default?

Most people who have been here in the Singles Forum a while know my story. I married young, and he left me for someone younger while we were both still very young. He remarried and had a family, so there is no possibility of any kind of reconciliation. I do believe, with much study, prayer, and guidance from spiritual authorities at the churches I've been a part of, that I am Biblically able to remarry, but for whatever reason, God has kept me single.

In the many years that followed, I filled most of the long, lonely hours with work. I come from a family in which almost all the women worked before marriage, married very young, continued to work until they had kids, then stayed at home with the kids and most went back to work after the kids were grown. I didn't think I'd be any different. I figured I would work until kids came along, work as a homemaker, and then go to back to an outside job when the kids were grown in order to help with the bills.

Now raise your hand if your life didn't quite go the way you expected. (Never mind me as I raise both hands and both feet.)

I also come from a family who, if they are addicted to anything, it would be work, and saving money is treated like an Olympic sport. I don't know what other people talk about at their family gatherings, but I have a sector of my family that happily recalls the week's events of how they bought such-and-such on sale, through a discount club, with a coupon, on a rewards card that also earned them 10 gajillion more points on their purchase.

I was also raised with the mindset of living as frugally as one can do comfortably. For example, it's been over 2 years since I bothered plugging in my television, because I don't use any kind of cable or subscriptions services. Throughout my life, I spent most nights on the weekends writing paper letters and/or electronic messages rather than going out. And I was raised under the strong influence of parents who drilled it in my head from a young age to save money wherever I could. (As kids, if we received any birthday or Christmas money, we were required to tithe 10% of it to church, then save half of what was left.) I hated this rule as a kid, but am grateful as an adult because of the strict financial discipline it instilled.

I've never had a "big career" or position that would be of any significance to anyone. But I did fill my time with work, church, volunteer and ministry tasks, while mostly just being a homebody. Because of this, as the years (and years, and years) have rolled by, all I knew to do to try to give my life purpose was to start making goals for myself.

I also spent about 12 years in a few long-term relationships in which I wound up paying for the guys' bills, kids, addictions, and court cases, and when I finally untangled myself from all of that, I was kicking myself because I could have put all that money into my future retirement goals instead. (I'm trying to follow other family member's examples of retiring and then going into full-time volunteer ministry work.)

Though I don't go on many dates, I have gotten to the point where, on the first day, I just tell the waitress to put it on one bill and hand it to me, unless the guy absolutely insists on paying (and even then, I've usually already had the waitress process it before he should protest.) This is because of the many, many posts I've read on CC over the years about guys complaining that women are only out for money. As I've become more financially stable, I just decided in my heart that I will never give a man any reason to say that I used him for something, and most especially not a free dinner.

Now, I am certainly not criticizing anyone who might be in a different situation. But I wanted to talk about this because I see a lot of discussions about what women "should" or "should not" do:

* Women should stay at home.
* Women should not have careers.
* Women should not be independent (and I understand that some even believe that women can't be independent.)

But the thing is, what about all the women I am meeting at this stage of my life who never purposely set out to "go against the grain," but this is where life (and perhaps God) has taken them? And some of the plans I thought I could never fulfill without a husband (such as traveling,) I am now able to fulfill because I find other single women who have the same interests, as well as the means to pay for them.

I came to see every debt I owed as a noose around my neck, and, after watching other family members cut off most of their nooses, aspired to do the same. My ultimate goal is to break away as many nooses as I possibly can in order to free up my time and resources for more opportunities to help people.

And the thing is, I keep meeting more and more single women who, for whatever reason, haven't married (but would like to,) and in the meantime, they are working towards the same kinds of goals. Not out of rebellion or even by choice (most I know would like to be married with children, but it just hasn't happened,) but because this is what they are doing with the time God has given them.

And I know that in my own life, in order to keep up the practice of being submissive to a Christian man, there are times in my life when God has specifically led me to go to my father and/or Christian male friends about some of the decisions I make, so that I don't become "too" independent by default.

I know I have shared a lot about myself in this thread, but this discussion is NOT meant to be about me or my life at all. Rather, I'm using my own example as a springboard to open a conversation that asks:

* What happens when women become financially independent by default? (Due to life circumstances, not rebellion.)

* How does this change the dynamics between men and women when dating? (What if she makes more money than he does? Should she be expected to pay because of it?)

* How does a man lead a woman who is more financially independent than he is?

* If you believe a woman should or can never become independent, what should a long-term single woman be doing with her time, and how should she support herself?

* For the ladies -- if you would like to get married, how do you see yourself going from making all the decisions to yourself to then submitting the final say to a husband?


I understand the traditional viewpoints that women should stay at home and be homemakers without ever holding an outside job. But my parent's full-time volunteer ministry is financial counseling (they pay for all the expenses involved themselves,) and one of the biggest issues they are now seeing are women who have been raised in this mindset, kept dependent at home all their lives, then are left alone due to divorce or the death of their husband, and have absolutely no idea how to take care of themselves or their children.

I would love to hear your thoughts about women who have no choice but to learn how to take care of themselves. Thank you for sharing!

It all depends on how you define independent. Doesn't matter if you're male or female, good financial management of what you have is critical. I think for many singles, if we aren't financially independent then we have to be dependent on someone and that can be a catalyst for all kinds of strife and bad decisions. You're much more likely to put up with all sorts of unacceptable things at work if you need that money and can't be out of work for even a few weeks without your whole world crashing down. I think there's also something to be said for knowing the value of money by having to spend some of your own sweat and brainpower on getting what you want.
But for those with families and small children, having someone focused on making the home a pleasant, safe, and nurturing environment is also of huge value. So is helping children learn to cope appropriately with the world around them.

One of the things we've seen over the last 100 years or so though is that women having the ability to go out and work a job and make their own money has made men and women need each other less to meet basic needs. Or to put it another way, more independent of each other. It's good aspects include enabling women in abusive relationships or situations to leave and making it more difficult for overbearing parents to dictate a young woman's life. It's less good consequences include higher divorce rates and greater societal acceptance of divorce, as well as a seeming decrease in the sense of responsibility people feel toward one another and members of their family.

I think the big way this changes relationship and dating dynamics is that the traditional male role of financial provider is diminished. And as I think about it even the tradition presupposes a certain level of financial attainment on the part of the man; it hasn't been that way for poor low class women throughout history. There may have been jobs that were limited to women's work or men's work and segregated; but women who needed to work outside the home (or from the home making and selling stuff like the proverbs 31 woman) to help their families get by have been working throughout history.

And I'm just going to leave all the leadership and submission stuff untouched for now.

Well, personally I don't see anything wrong with a woman being financially independent (in the sense she works and makes a living/income). Everyone needs to eat.

It's the issue of independence. If you are married that should raise concerns, and not in the sense where the woman shouldn't work but in the ideology of independence. When married the income of either just the one or both parties is the household income. That is, it is neither mine or yours but ours!

However, there is no hard or fast rules and whatever couples have agreed upon is alright, as long as both parties are happy with the financial agreement.

To me the problem arises with this idea of independence.. If you are married - independent from what would be my question to either male or female.

So my view and I pray I am being biblical here is that neither the husband nor the wife is independent of each other but dependent on one another. Of course that may work itself out in many and varied ways. but in no way independent!

So if the wife wants to go out and work that's fine but the finance is not independent, the income is still the households. As is the husbands..its not his income. Married couple should be able to say our income no matter who makes it or doesn't.

If your single the question really doesn't arise. Because you are in essence independent.

The idea of the man leading in the household has nothing to do with the amount of his income.. But in the overall spiritual leadership, protecting, leading the family in faith, protection etc etc (a simplistic answer I know but it gets to the point).

Just as a point of interest...the women in proverbs 31, is a hard working woman, obviously making money. But her eye is always on the good of the home.

all the days of her life.
13 She selects wool and flax
and works with eager hands.
14 She is like the merchant ships,
bringing her food from afar.
15 She gets up while it is still night;
she provides food for her family
and portions for her female servants.
16 She considers a field and buys it;
out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.
17 She sets about her work vigorously;
her arms are strong for her tasks.
18 She sees that her trading is profitable,
and her lamp does not go out at night.
19 In her hand she holds the distaff
and grasps the spindle with her fingers.



So if a married woman wants to go out and work that is fine, if she wants to be a stay at home wife/mom that's fine also... Just remember that it is all for the good of two who are now one!

Just remember that when you are married you are not independent financially or otherwise.. that's a world view not a biblical one.

A good question as always Soulsearch.. And i haven't even mentioned good stewardship of that income

I dont ever want to be financically dependent on anyone or anything. My life is dependent on God. Thats it. I will not be dependent on a man or the government to eat.
Women in the bible worked too

Being financially independent, man or woman, is a good thing. Being financially independent offers news opportunities and contributes to wellness. I fill out a questionnaire for my health insurance which calculates a wellness score every year and one of the topics covered is financial wellbeing (such as having a safe place to stay, food to eat, etc.). In a marriage, the ability to be financially independent is also important I believe in case of worst case scenario.

Money in marriage could be a tricky issue because whoever controls the money has control over more. When a person is entirely dependent on someone else, he/she is entirely vulnerable which could turn out to be a dangerous situation. Being financially independent provides a hedge against that worst case scenario.

In marriage, I agree the term used should be "our" money as the finances are now combined. "Our" means both persons should have say over how the money should be spent. "Our" means the money (especially the money earned while both are married) is under both names, not just under one spouse's name. The term "our" really is meaningless if the husband being head of household chooses to spend the money according to his desires and doesn't have his wife have any say (and influence) in the financial decisions.

Preach it, sister.

One of the many things that always leaves me wanting to bang my head against a wall within the church communities I've been part of is a prevailing thought that women should be completely dependent upon men for financial support.

But yet at the same time, women are condemned because they are seen as using men for money or cleaning out their finances. And I'm certainly not denying that some women don't do this.

But it's impossible to have it both ways. You can't have both a culture of raising women to be completely dependent upon men, and then somehow expect them to be able to instantly survive on their own AND support kids when they've only been taught to stay at home, depend on a man to pay for everything, and then never hold a job outside the home.

There seems to be an expectation that every woman will always have a husband to support her and that he will never get sick, never lose his job, never go on disability, never leave, and never die.

I could be wrong about this, but the realities of most people I know just don't work this way.

You can't teach people an entire life of learned helplessness and dependence and then suddenly expect them to be self-sufficient when life actually happens.

I don't think there is anything to be done in this case. Especially if she is single, it is good to be financially independent.

Yes, I think the spouse who makes more should pay more, roughly in proportion to his/her income while dating, or more if he/she can afford to/doesn't mind. Generally, I believe both people should be very generous. Having both people pitch in also means more money for activities, etc., and so there is no heavy financial burden on either person.

Leading an entirely dependent person may be easier, since that person has no other option. I think the focus here should be more on the word "independent" woman rather than financially independent woman. On leading an independent person, this person is less likely to blindly follow so the man may face more resistance. The man is still able to lead the woman but may end up responding to more questions than usual.

I am not sure how a woman can support herself if she isn't financially independent. In this case, I believe a father is responsible for supporting his daughter until she gets married, no matter how old she gets. A long-term single woman, who doesn't believe in a career, will likely stay with her parents and do various charity/ministry work. There are a lot of places begging for volunteers, so there is plenty of opportunity there.

If both people are on the same page, this should not be a problem. For instance, if both people like to travel, the issue of travel and spending money on travel should not be an issue. However, there are more complicated financial issues, such as helping an irresponsible adult sibling. Some issues will be difficult.

you had a different upbringing Seoul

I think I am younger than you so its different. Was raised not to be dependent on a man. Marriage was not even really an option.

Most people here just live together they dont marry, but if they do, they need to sort things out amongst themselves according to ...what work they can find, and how the economy is going, and also what caregivers or support network they have access to.

I flatted for a while with a lady that had two children, she had split from her partner, and they were sharing custody of the kids, so I had a room in her home which I was paying board/rent, power and water, so...I guess I was helping make ends meet for her. (though I was just flatting to be independent from MY family for a while) she had a job but it didnt cover all her expenses of the house. so thats why she took a flatmate in. She also got some income assistance from WINZ I think its solo parent benefit.

THen she and her new boyfriend decided to move in together so they bought a house and eventually got married after they had a daughter. They asked me if I wanted to live with them but I decided to move back home.
Her now husband had a job that was quite steady as a an accountant plus he could also work from home, so he bought this lifestyle block and worked a lot on that with animals, chickens, llamas etc. She was a secretary and also a dance instructor. Most people have two jobs. She gave up being a secretary and attempted to run her own business for a while (virtual PA)

when you run or own your own business or self employed you can be said to be truly independent. If you work for a corporate or govt you are not. You are relying on someone else for your income.

you church community sounds like it head stuck in the sand or timewarped to the 1950s seouls honestly.

what people do here is buy another home and then rent their cheaper one out, as a source of income. Depends if you can get reliable tenants though. Also parents make their older children either pay rent or board or they then get jobs to contribute to the running of the household. Some have to leave school to do this. if you not working by age 13 for your parents then you are the lucky one!

You'd be surprised how prevalent those beliefs still are, at least here in the USA.

And some recent threads by young men in their 20's and 30's saying they are in other countries cemented the fact that even young people believe this is Biblical, and therefore just how they think it should be.

People call working for someone elses business 'working for the man'. I would say in some instances. being a wife is just like working for the man, except you dont get paid lol

That's how it works for the really good Christians. Which means that if any of those terrible (yet completely normal) life circumstances happen it must be your fault for doing something to make God mad at you or else just not being a good enough Christian. After all didn't Jesus say, "In this world you'll have no trouble if you are truly my disciples"

Wait what? What do you mean he said "In this world you will have trouble, but take heart I have overcome the world" ? We can't advertise that, no one would sign up for that. What did you say? "He must deny himself and take up his cross"? No that's an even worse slogan, who came up with that?

(I don't need the Sarcasm tags on this do I? Well we've got a lot of newbies running around so just in case: This is sarcasm people)

Thing is it is different when you live in the city as opposed to the country, the ecnomy and the jobs you do completely different.

when you live in the country you are dependent on the land to give you a living and you must look after it. In the city, its about your wits and skills, or the service that you do for other people.

A farmers wife has a different remit to say a doctors wife or any other type of job. If you both own a busness you work together. Or you could be a trophy wife if you marry a wealthy man, but that entails a lot of high maintenance lifestyle lol

I think people need to face reality....

the only person who could never get sick, never die, never lose their job, never leave. well that must be God right. Hes our Father. He raised Jesus from the dead.
Men are just men at end if the day, they have feet of clay. Its only by Gods grace that we can live.

I dont know if christians (women) just expect grace to be automatic, but I do know God gives grace to the humble, not the proud. A lot of grace is totally unseen and it works on peoples (mens) hearts first. So I supoose that if you marry someone you would just pray their hearts are right with God. You cant expect that though as peoples(mens) hearts can be deceptive. Who can know it. Only God.

I am in awe. An amazing piece of works and very interesting perspectives. A lot of emotion and and journey in just a few paragraphs. I will need to read the post a few more times to even start to absorb all you have shared. Whilst I will have lots of opinion I can't say I'm particularly well informed but so glad you wrote this. It's timely relevant and and very thought-provoking. Probably one of the best posts

Utmost RESPECT for Financially Independent women...

LOL, I would welcome one into my life - if the Lord's Will were to bless my journey so...

Was raised by a Mother who was Widowed at the young age of 38 years old... She Raised SIX of us Independently by initially working at a Nursing Home, followed by a Lunch Lady at the local schools, and finally worked and retired from the Main Cafeteria that serviced the entire Tucson AZ School District...
She did it all on her own (Independent - without a Man), granted she did receive VA benefits to assist here with medical expenses etc...

Interestingly, we never went without, had so much love in our home, we never knew that we were quasi poor...

Yeah, that Proverb 31 lady was a hard worker too.

A big shout of nothing but RESPECT to your mother!

The sobering fact is that a vast number of households and children today are being raised by single parents, and often single mothers at that, for which depending on a man means either jumping from one relationship to the other, or jumping into the wrong relationship too soon.

Not to mention all the men who don't want to be used for a paycheck, and also deserve true and genuine love themselves -- not to be treated as the nearest ATM machine.

And of course, to complicate matters, many singles are looking to start families "of their own" and don't want to raise "someone else's children," which means single parents often have no choice but to learn to take on everything themselves.

I have no problems with women being raised to be homemakers -- I just hope to see a balance, so that if and when life's tragedies come, they are adequately prepared to handle them, even if it means doing so on their own.

One reason that we moved from Florida to Tennessee was to lower our monthly expenses to the point where if either one of us dies the other can still afford to stay.

My wife was a single mom who worked outside of the home at a full time job and, on occasion, cleaned peoples houses for extra money to eat. Quite remarkable. Definitely independent. Still is for that matter.