Sabbath

in all my dealings with Sabbatarians over the years, it seems they are immune to the truth and will go to extreme lengths to try and create a mashup of scripture that you don't know whether to laugh at or cry over it's so bad

it's a waste of time...you will not get a sincere reply and will be accused of nonsense

I'm ignoring them both and leaving the thread

The fact that you keep hanging on this after I stated the same results come from other translations shows that you love to argue. Why don't you put more energy in the the scriptures I mentioned... Lets start with James 2:19-26. What are your beliefs on that passage?

Your just don't have truth in you... Haven't addressed a scripture I mentioned yet. Just in love with your interpretation of Paul... How about James 2:19-26... nothing?

You should leave.... Ignoring the scriptures that don't support your agenda and throw baseless claims back instead.

Has God rested from all His work, or is He still working today?

What scripture would you like to discuss.


And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
Colossians 2:13-16

• So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

JPT

This was not one of the scriptures I was referring to discussing. Because it is right here and I haven't spoken with you yet, I will briefly address it though..... However, I have already addressed multiple scriptures from Paul (Romans/Galatians) while others did not address HOW my assessment of these scriptures were incorrect. I have also left scriptures from Peter, James and the gospels that support my claims. Those scriptures have gotten ignored.

I've said this in an earlier post, but a lot of confusion about the law exists in the church because people aren't separating the penalties from not following law (sin), from the law itself. It is a blessing to follow the law.... If you do not follow the law (sin), then it is a curse. You can find this in Duet 11:26-28...

So in Colossians 2:14 what was "nailed to the cross" was the curse of the law....A.K.A. the penalties for breaking it (like animal sacrifices). The speed limit still stands.... The Messiah just paid one big speeding ticket for us. As far as Colossians 2:16 is concerned, I believe this is saying the exact opposite of how its sometimes being used. The context makes a huge difference. This was written to Greek converts in Colossae that were living amongst people that were not keeping The Fathers laws. These converts were trying to keep the dietary laws, the feasts, the Sabbath, etc..... Paul was saying do not let others judge you in doing so.

The passages that I was initially trying to discuss were 2 Peter 3:16-17, James 2:19-26 and Mathew 5:18-19.... Just to name a few.

You can read my other posts if you like.... I have shown that I don't avoid discussing Paul's writings. I just believe in modern mainstream Christianity, the doctrine rests solely on interpretations of what Paul says and not on other scriptures that may seem to contradict those interpretations.

You do understand that Moses was the mediator of the Sinai Covenant, so it was called the law of Moses.


Jesus is the Mediator of the New Covenant, in which it’s called the law of Christ.


We follow and obey Jesus Christ, and His commandments, which are written on our heart and mind.


The law of Moses was abolished at the cross.


For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. Ephesians 2:14-16

• has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man

Do you understand what the dividing wall that separated Jew and Gentile was?






JPT

Christ fulfilled all of the law every ordinance

“Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭

keeping one day holy was how sinful non spiritual people could obey they didn’t have the spirit as the church does our commandments are the ones Jesus gave “the spirit “

So the commandment goes from what I spiritual people saw and obeyed to what born again people with a Holy Spirit in them learn to walk in notice how the command goes from the flesh action , to the spirit within.

“Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:27-28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Christ is healing true inner things because that’s why people commit adultery they allow listful intent and thought to remain in them d it breeds lustful thoughts and intents d eventually leads to sin

the sabbath was the same all the law went from what they without the spirit were commanded and those o receive the spirit are commanded

the sabbath was only keeping a day holy , Christ and the gospel came to make we the people holy by his work and our rest in him our sabbath is in Christ our rest is after our labors

“Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

For if Joshua had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:7-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

In the world we have work to do spreading the gospel in various gifts given to us by the lord , but there is a sabbath ahead for us when we leave tris world

“And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

everything in the ot was magnified to the spiritual level it went from a commandment for the flesh to the spirit even the sabbath was a flesh commandment to keep a day holy in Christ is to do good today even if it is a sabbath day and even if it requires effort

observing a sabbath day isn’t wrong however it’s a matter of faith and different based on our convictions

When it comes to things like the sabbath or clean and unclean foods it’s a matter of faith now for the individual

“One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:5-6‬ ‭

one person who is convinced we need to observe the ot sabbath needs to because of they don’t it makes them guilty in thier mind .

the other person thinks everyday is the same so if they don’t observe a sabbath day it won’t matter to thier conscience thier not sinning because thier faith is in Christ not moses or the angels

“For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but thier faith is in the thkngs jesus taught the godly spiritual things thy at keep Us from walking in and living in sin but observing a sabbath day in the church isn’t required christ is who we need

"Do you understand what the dividing wall that separated Jew and Gentile was?"

Asking this question implies that your understanding of what this wall is is infallible. My belief is that this wall is the "hostility" (enmity) spoken of in verses 14 and 16. What was causing this wall of hostility was man's law, not The Fathers law. In verse 15, the Greek word for ordinances or dogma is translated as "decrees" in both Luke and Acts... and in those verses it is clear that it is referring to law made by man.

Mankind has always had problems following The Father's law how it was meant to be, and people in power have always ended up twisting the law into their own decrees. These "ordinances" in Ephesians 2:15 are just like the extra "laws" the Pharisees added as well as Oral "laws" found in modern day Judaism.

I left the passage 2Peter 3:16-17 in my last reply to you, which I have also mentioned in multiple posts. We have a clear warning in scripture of Paul's writing being hard to understand and leading us astray... we ignore this warning and think we can just pick up a bible containing his translated writings and comprehend them clearly without a hitch.


If we are going to have a conversation going forward it cant be one-sided. Please address the passages I left in my last reply before posting more of Paul's writings or other scriptures for me to address. Again these passages are Mathew 5:18-19, James 2:19-26 and the one I just posted here 2 Peter 3:16-17.

How do you interpret 2 Peter 3:16- 17, Mathew 5:18-19 and James 2:19-26?

what’s to interpret we’re supposed Tom learn and believe interpretation is why we have seventeen ideas when we all group up so2 Peter he’s explaining that Paul’s epistles are often distorted by people like they don’t he other scriptures because Paul wrote such long explaination thier easy to distort

“As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But see this isn’t a distortion it’s just noticing what’s actually there

Is Moses law Christian doctrine ? Or a subversion to the soul ?

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

not really something needful of interpretation sort of just says what it says

“Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:14, 16-17‬ ‭

again sabbath days , clean foods and unclean foods , new moon festivals …. The ordinances of Moses law were only a shadow of the reality of Christ

that’s what half of Paul’s epistles are about how the law of Moses isn’t our doctrine , the gospel is so again interpretations are the issue but hearing and believing is the answer

see where oil says the ordinances like sabbath days were “ contrary to us “ and Christ removes them ?

the law was never ever meant to save us it was a witness against the children of Israel to bring them also under condemnation

“Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭31:26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the commandment “ do not work on the sabbath day “ is telling sinners what not to do it’s for this purpose when it is broken

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭

that’s it’s purpose it’s applied to these people

“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s for those folks to convict them of sin before God so they too have no other path but through Christ and the gospel

this one Jesus interprets for us

“For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he explains it here which of you look closely can actually see the changing of the covenant and the chosen people for the covenant

“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them,

Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:44-47‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Christ DID fulfill all things of the ot the law prophets and psalms we’re telling us of the coming of Christ and his word

it happened right here in this moment the law and prophets and psalms were fulfilled

“When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.”
‭‭John‬ ‭19:30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s why this happened after Jesus rose you see the veil of the temple torn showing the removal
Of the shadow and veiled covenant

“And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:51-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s because Gods word of life had come and remitted sins of those who slept under rule of the law in the earth so their spirits were in the dust like Samuels spirit slept in the earth until that day

“Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?
‭‭1 Samuel‬ ‭28:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s because Samuel died under the law d it holds the soul in death

“But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We’ve been delivered from the law of stone d were offered the law of the spirit that’s written on our hearts who believe the lords Gospel

james 2 is explaining that having faith leads to the good works of the gospel it doesn’t have anything to do with what Moses said it’s a conflict his law is an accuser

“Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:45‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when we begin studying Christ and also
Moses it becomes evident the dofferent and contrary nature of the doctrine one addresses men by thoer flesh so service is a lot of ordinances ceremonial washing’s , sabbath keeping , new moons different festivals for seasons and feasts commandments about what not to do “ don’t lie “ don’t kill” don’t steal” don’t commit adultery “ do
No work on the sabbath “ it’s all addressing only the action and none of the actions help anyone else it’s all
About the servants conscience held by whether they obeyed every single tittle d ordinance perfectly or not then we’re dead by the law and cursed in death forever

but as you saw above the gospel offers life to the dead and Jesus never commanded any sabbath day keeping he said “ do good on the sabbath “ his disciples “ gathered food on the sabbath as was forbidden under Moses , Christ performed works on the sabbath also good works

James isn’t Jew preaching Moses he’s a Christian preaching Christ

Everything you've said here is your "interpretation" of these scriptures. Its arrogant to think that your understanding of what you are reading is just what it is, and the people that come to different conclusions than you are "interpreting".

I've addressed your interpretation of these verses in earlier posts... Romans 3:19-20 is only talking about HEARING the law/ knowing what it says.... not actually DOING IT. It is saying the same thing as the first half of Romans 2:13.... the last half stating that we are justified in actually DOING the law.

I also have already addressed Colossians 2.... The context is Greek converts that were trying to keep the dietary laws, feasts, sabbaths, etc. and were being judged for it. Paul was saying don't let others judge you for KEEPING THE LAW.... not the other way around.

arrogant to believe what’s there ? No it’s already interpreted for us but I digress I can see where this is going

yep that’s an interpretation there but it still says the same things
like this

“Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

not married to the law anymore but to the other guy who raised from death

Again these are your beliefs and interpretations. The messiah did not say that him "fulfilling the law" means that when he dies the law no longer applies. You have to interpret that into the text.

How do you interpret "until heaven and earth pass?"

What about doing and teaching the laws effecting our place in heaven in Mathew 5:19?

thisnis a perfect example of ones own interpretation not based on what’s there but you have to go outside scripture to explain it away

“The context is Greek converts that were trying to keep the dietary laws, feasts, sabbaths, etc. and were being judged for it. Paul was saying don't let others judge you for KEEPING THE LAW...”

D why not read it again ? What did Christ nail to his cross and take away ? What ordinances were against us ?

How do you explain it really ?

“Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:14-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So Paul’s saying some to king of writing ordinances were taken out of the way nailed it to the cross what’s he talking about there ? What’s written in letter of ordinance and witnesses against us ?

“Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the Lord; and how much more after my death?”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭31:26-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬


God already knew they weren’t going to ever obey he had told
Moses this and then Moses told the people d gave them the law for a witness against them Christ took that accusation out of the way and nailed it to the cross is what he’s saying that’s the reason I quoted the apostles decision when this question came up but you seem to think it’s written in hidden code ?

this was thy issue and the apostles all congregated to decide the issue form e church I ask you does this require interpretation or being humble and reading

here was the issue they decided

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:5-6‬ ‭

so far self explanatory right ?

this is their answer after debating the matter

“Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from

and this is the letter they wrote regarding this matter to the church


Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:10-11, 13, 19-20, 24‬ ‭

that doesn’t require y interpretation at all it’s self exlplaining it was e apostles gathering to decode this very matter , but I suppose we could “ interpret” it away and believe the opposite seems like we’d be harnessing a toke no one ever could bear but what does Peter know right ? Or James ? Paul ? Barnabus and John ? They already explained every to king for us our job is to learn and believe and let the scripture interpret it’s self

Most scholars believe that James here was writing this as a rebuttal to Paul (I believe in Romans). James made it clear that we need both components to the law... The faith (the spiritual side) and the works (the physical side). The Fathers law (instructions) was never the problem... It was always our sin (not following the law). The problem was we were not following the law how it was intended. We were adding to it, taking away from it, and missing the spiritual component of it.

The Messiah did not do away with the law... He did away with the penalties for sin (breaking the law). E.G. Animal sacrifice..... And he showed us how the law was always meant to be kept in the first place. He did not tear down the speed limit sign... He just payed one big ticket for us.