predestination vs freewill

Okay, now your starting to sound like the other religionist on this chat.

Okay, now your starting to sound like the other religionist on this chat.

The simple answer is no. One does not have to have the indwelling of the Spirit to believe. The New Birth accomplishes this need. The proof of this point is in the Scriptures and by asking simple questions to guide ones thoughts.

Were there not believers in the Old Testament economy? Of course there were. Did they have the indwelling of the Spirit? NO. However by requirement, they must have been born anew by the same Spirit. What requirement you may ask? The requirement revealed by our Lord at the end of the Old Testament economy and should have been known by the Old Testament teachers:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born anew.

Were the twelve disciples believers in Christ? Well eleven were and one was a fake. But yes, the eleven were believing on Christ. Did they posses the indwelling of the Spirit? NO However they had been born anew and had the abiding presents of the Spirit and later would have the indwelling Spirit in them.

What is the promise of our Lord as to the coming of the Spirit. Let's see what Scripture says.

John_14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever,
John 14:17 even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholds him not, neither is knowing him: ye know him; for he abides with you, and shall be in you.

1) He is to be the believers comforter. Christ was departing and this was traumatic on the believers being left behind.
2) Here we are told that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth - of course He is, no believer would deny this.
3) The world cannot receive this Spirit, why not? First, because the world here is the non-elect, they do not know Him. They do not know Him because they have not been born anew. Being born anew introduces the Spirit to the future believer and this self same Spirit abides with this new infant child while he takes his first Conversion steps. Like a father protecting his child from the evils of the world. This begins the baby steps towards Christ and the Gospel is the beacon which leads the way.
4) That in the near future the Spirit would be indwelling them.

What is the purpose of the Spirits indwelling? Again, what does the Scripture say?

John_14:26 But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.

1) He will teach us. He does this by illuminating our minds as we study, witness and hear the word expounded. But He does not teach what we have not been exposed to. He does not give us information but aids in our understanding, of those things which have been revealed in Holy Writ.
2) He brings us into remembrance. As humans, without this aid, we would forget more than we know.

John_15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall bear witness of me:

1) The Holy Spirit does not seek His own glory but moves all things towards Christ in our knowledge, so that Christ is further exalted.

John_16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth: It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I go, I will send him unto you.

The Holy Spirit was so necessary for the Universal Church, which Christ is building, that the Lord Himself said - it is expedient for you that I go away. Why so expedient? The answer I believe is in this verse:

1Pe_2:9 But ye are an elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:

Other passages, tell us more about the Spirits office in the Universal Church.

I never said there was some extended "gap" between Regeneration and hearing the Gospel. What I said is, no one human can pin point the exact moment of the new birth. Only God knows for sure if there is a Nano-second gap or if it is longer. I do not speak for the Lord. I simply maintain, that the new birth must come first.

You make it sound as if hearing the Gospel and believing are one in the same thing. A person does not believe the moment they hear the Gospel, they have to consider the Gospel message and determine if they agree with what is heard. Ponder who this Jesus Christ is, way the cost, then give themselves over to Christ. This could take hours if not days. So why do you have a problem with a so called time gap between regeneration and believing. Makes no sense to me.

You say you believe in a monergism, but this belief states: Monergism is the view within Christian Theology which holds that God works through the Holy Spirit to bring about the salvation of an individual through spiritual regeneration, regardless of the individual's cooperation. This is what I believe. What you are professing is some sort of synergism based upon Gospel regeneration.

You say, that I have a person being born anew before they are Justified. Really - I will be as gracious as I can here, but you have a ways to go on the subject of Justification. If you believe that a person is Justified when they believe, you have missed the target by a mile.

Does the Father justify the Elect out of our faith or out of the faithful work of His Son? Do you think the Justification of the Elect is based on what the elect does or does not? That God places his entire plan on whether we believe or exercise faith? God leaves nothing in the hands of man, this is taught throughout Scripture. God is in control of His plan of Salvation. He enables man to do His will and insures that the elect make it all the way,

The Justification of the Elect was a done deal before God created and before His Son went to the cross. The Elect were in Christ before the foundation of the world. Justification was accomplished in God's eternal purpose because nothing can stop God from accomplishing what He purposes. This is why Paul wrote what he wrote in the past tense.

Rom 8:30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifies;

To many believers still don't grasp the concept of Eternal Security for what it is. The Elect are Eternally secure because nothing is dependent upon the elect. The elect will fulfil the requirements of salvation because God will make sure they do. He has purposed it already and it will take place just that way. God met the requirements of the Law Himself and has already accomplished all that is required to satisfy His Holy Justice. When Christ on the cross said: It is finished. That is exactly what He meant. He finished all that His Father had purposed for Him. We are the recipients of Grace, put no human requirement in the way. If a person is born anew, he will believe and nothing can stop that.

That's your Sophistry, not the actual truth in scripture.

And now, above, as you detailed how and why that all made sense to you, as you attempted to first define the heresy of tritheism, and then detailed how it all makes sense to you.

God does not need to be saved. So, He didnt die on the Cross to save Himself.

Your theology is not related to why Christ died on the Cross.
You might want to realize this, and get out of your denomination.

But in a different aspect than Humans.
For example fallen humans can be born again, while fallen angels cannot.

I am not sure what your point was you were trying to make but hopefully, it was not to deny eternal security.

2 Peter 2:4, was stating a fact, after the war in Heaven, 1/3 of the Angels were cast out of Heaven. No more will be cast out because they are upheld by God's Righteousness and Power.

2 Peter 2:20-22. is not referencing a true believer, it is talking about one who meddles in the things of God but walks in the flesh. This is the picture of a Religionist, talks a good talk, calls themselves a Christian but continues in the entanglements of the world and it's vices. But having learned some of the things about God's laws and Commandments but are still lost, it would have been better for them to have never known. Why? Because this knowledge will be used against them in the coming Judgement. The proof of who this type of person is - is in 2 Peter 2:10-19.

A true believer cannot fall from Grace. If this could happen, it would make Christ a liar.

You and I both know that the sacrifice that Jesus was to eternally save all of those people that his Father gave to him.

We who are born again will be like the angels, if we attain to the resurrection of the dead in Christ; being sons of the resurrection.

Did they have the indwelling of the Spirit? NO.

The old testament saints were born again, the same way that we are born again, by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Isa 63:11.

Here is what Paul teaches...which is what I know.
I invite you to know it also....

The will of God is that you believe on the One, whom, God sent.

John 3:16 says......"whosoever will believe"......so, that is a universal offer that denies the cult of the pre-destined elect's heresy.

Jesus said...>"If i be lifted up on the Cross, i will draw ALL men, to me'".......so, "all" denies the cult of the pre-destined elect's heresy.

John 3:17 says....>""For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Christ". and this verse denies the cult of the pre-destined elect's heresy...

"whosoever .

You can't be born again, unless Christ is on the Cross dying for your sin as this........John 3:16,17.

So, if Jesus died on the Cross in the Old Testament, then your cult is telling you the truth.
If Jesus didn't die on the Cross in the Old Testament then you are in a FALSE situation, aren't you.....
Better solve it., while you still can.

Christ's death on the cross covers the sins

Look at your own word.
Get your dictionary.
Leave your cult.