Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

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I

Icedaisey

Well-known member
#81
Jul 19, 2021
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#81
ResidentAlien said:
It's not by God's "whim" as you put it, but by His holy and just discretion. If our salvation doesn't depend on God's discretion, then upon who, or what, does it depend?
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You misrepresented or misunderstood what I said.
I'll say it plainly. We are saved by God's grace through faith. It is not our doing but a free irrevocable gift of God.
We cannot lose our salvation, ever. As God said. No, I won't post those verses because they're of no use to those who have no use for them when they deny salvation is eternal. And they've been posted repeatedly in this thread and threads like it on every Christian discussion forum there is. It's a staple topic. Same supporting verses all the time.
Jesus said, no one comes to him but the father draws them. And he will never cast them out. They will never fall from his hand.
When God says, "never", he means it.
Why?
Because God knew whom he would save before the foundation of the world. And those names he wrote in his Lamb's Book of Life before the foundation of the world.
Now, for certain, there will be modes of thought that insist God changes his mind, We can do something that will make God fall back from his assurance.
They can say that.
God never said that.

There's a difference.
God saves.
People believe that.
Other people since the time of Christ don't like to hear that.

ETERNAL SALVATION. ETERNAL LIFE.

That's pretty clear. Not conditional. Eternal.

And really, those who don't accept that shouldn't. Those who are in Christ don't doubt it. That's the difference too.

"Are you saying people who don't believe in God's word that assures eternal irrevocable salvation aren't saved?"
No.
They are.
 
I

Icedaisey

Well-known member
#83
Jul 19, 2021
1,398
475
83
#83
ResidentAlien said:
Of course our salvation depends on our works. If you say otherwise, you're picking what scriptures you want to believe and ignoring the rest. Salvation by faith alone is a different gospel, a demonic one.

"But someone will say, 'You have faith and I have deeds.' Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. You believe that God is one. Good for you! Even the demons believe that—and shudder."—James 2:18-19

"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done."—Revelation 20:12
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I take comfort in knowing you'll answer for calling God's words demonic.

And shall leave you to work, work, work, work, work, work, all your living life in the hopes at the end and at your last breath you've worked hard enough to be saved.

My Jesus didn't teach that. Good luck with yours.
 
M

mindfulzen

Banned
#84
Aug 4, 2021
586
185
43
#84
FreeGrace2 said:
Of the 12, who else could Jesus be referring to, other than the betrayer himself??


Yes, you did. But how do you come up with that conclusion, based on a kiss? It was that very kiss that betrayed Jesus.


Jesus referred to Judas as the "son of perdition" in John 17:12.


What kind of hype is this? How do you come to your claims?

Judas was not the only one who turned away, remember Peter?
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It is obvious in the Scripture that immediately AFTER the cock crowed that Peter remembered what Jesus said about him. He didn't lose his salvation over it. And he clearly repented and became one of the most vocal of the apostles. So don't lump Peter and Judas in the same pile.


Irrelevant.


The Bible reveals he has remorse, but no repentance. Knowing that Jesus was innocent isn't salvation. That's as far as Judas got.


I wonder where you get to your conclusions from. 2 chances?? Really? How long was Judas with Jesus and the 11? Nearly 3.5 yrs.


What does this mean?


Please show me where Jesus forgave Judas and Judas thanked Him for it. Regardless, none of that equals salvation anyway.[/QUOTE]
He could point to anybody, nobody fought for Jesus after he was betrayed, if you read your bible you would know that Peter had much guilt. Peter was given the most trust and failed Jesus, that is one. Judas betrayed him for money, so that is most likely, I agree, but I state he was offered a chance, and he failed, Jesus offered up two chances for him, that was my point. He could refrain after the fact if he wanted to go to heaven.

The rest seems a bit emotional, bit angry. I do not do anger anymore, sorry. I wish you the best.
 
M

mindfulzen

Banned
#85
Aug 4, 2021
586
185
43
#85
rayzor said:
jesus said i have lost none that u have given me.
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OK, what does that mean? And how does it relate to my comment? And mind you, I have not finished the collection of books yet, only read 30%, slow reader, recently turned christian who actually does the work. Why browbeat me about scripture? I belive Jesus gave Judas two chances, what does it matter? Jesus never failed Judas is my point. Gave him two chances, was kind of a favourite is all. After I read more I might change my mind. I never really read books in the past, sorry.. Takes time. I do it chronological, not front to back, and I do have stuff going on in my life too, cannot read nonstop, if I did it would not stick. So wind off with some gaming, some soccer, some other stuff, sorry. Rome was not built in a day.
 
R

rayzor

Banned
#86
Aug 20, 2021
1,863
310
83
#86
mindfulzen .I don't like what the bibles says sometimes.Namely that some r chosen 2 be bad guys before they where born but it's there.Judas is called the son of perdition.Some see his mention in Psalm 109:8
 
I

Icedaisey

Well-known member
#87
Jul 19, 2021
1,398
475
83
#87
mindfulzen said:
It is obvious in the Scripture that immediately AFTER the cock crowed that Peter remembered what Jesus said about him. He didn't lose his salvation over it. And he clearly repented and became one of the most vocal of the apostles. So don't lump Peter and Judas in the same pile.


Irrelevant.


The Bible reveals he has remorse, but no repentance. Knowing that Jesus was innocent isn't salvation. That's as far as Judas got.


I wonder where you get to your conclusions from. 2 chances?? Really? How long was Judas with Jesus and the 11? Nearly 3.5 yrs.


What does this mean?


Please show me where Jesus forgave Judas and Judas thanked Him for it. Regardless, none of that equals salvation anyway.
He could point to anybody, nobody fought for Jesus after he was betrayed, if you read your bible you would know that Peter had much guilt. Peter was given the most trust and failed Jesus, that is one. Judas betrayed him for money, so that is most likely, I agree, but I state he was offered a chance, and he failed, Jesus offered up two chances for him, that was my point. He could refrain after the fact if he wanted to go to heaven.

The rest seems a bit emotional, bit angry. I do not do anger anymore, sorry. I wish you the best.
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Repentance is synonymous with remorse.

Matthew 27:3 Then Judas, which betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

Jesus said, from the cross, father forgive them for they know not what they do. I believe Judas was forgiven in that instant and with his repentance for his betrayal, he was forgiven his act.
However, something that we can't ignore is this.
In the upper room if we read Luke 22 we may presume Judas received what we call communion, along with the other disciples.

Further, Jesus knew what Judas was going to do. He told him to go and do what he had to do, and do it quickly. But, and this is easily missed if we don't read carefully. Satan entered Judas when Jesus gave Judas the morsel of bread that was the symbolic flesh of Jesus.
And knowing this as he would, Jesus then told what would be Satan that had possessed the body of Judas, So Jesus told him, "Hurry! Do what you have to do."

Therein is the issue. It wasn't Judas who went forth, at Jesus' insistence, and betrayed him to the Sadducees of the temple. It was Satan.
And really, that makes sense. Jesus was born to give his life to seal the new covenant. Jesus was to die so to remove Satan's power over death. Therein, Satan, who before has operated as we know according to God's plan (Job), would be the one who would happily turn over the one he'd tried to tempt to obey him, to those who wanted him dead.
Because Jesus' Disciples wouldn't betray Jesus to his enemies. But Satan would be the perfect one to do that and to those very one's Jesus called the Pharisees who thought to call him to account for his actions on Sabbath day, of belonging to their father the Devil. John 8.
This then helps to make sense of Judas' remorse, repentance, once he realized what he'd done. He didn't do it.
But it was done and Jesus was in custody. Which would explain how he felt remorse, returned the silver, and hanged himself. Because the law said, cursed is anyone who hangs on a tree. Matthew 27.

And that curse is also why Jesus was to die on a tree, the cross, to take the sins of the world upon himself.

Jesus had to die on a cross, tree, to fulfill the plan of God. No Disciple would betray him. Of course Satan would have to be the one to occupy the body of a Disciple and do the deed. But Satan wouldn't have known God's plan. He's not going to do something that is going to insure he loses his power over death being he was, and is, lord of this world. John 12:31
And how else, if not for Satan, would Jesus have been killed per God's plan but also unbeknownst to them, that of the Pharisees?

We're not responsible for what Satan does if he occupies our body, possesses us. Why would Judas be any different? Especially when it can't really be called a betrayal, when Jesus, knowing his purpose, told "Judas" to go and do what Jesus knew he had to do. And quickly.

Judas had remorse when he realized what had happened. I believe he was forgiven by Jesus from the cross. Because Jesus knew Satan was within Judas. That's how we know this through the scriptures. And that especially reiterates Jesus words of forgiveness from the cross. "Forgive them for they know not what they do." That was Judas to a T. Satan was in him. Judas didn't know what Satan was doing. That's why the scripture tells us, when Judas realized what he'd done....He didn't realize it while doing it. He realized it when he saw Jesus in the custody of the Pharisee's and Sadducees who wanted him dead.

Satan was the son of perdition. JOHN 17:12 “While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Some think Judas is that son of Perdition. But as we know, Satan, who can do nothing without God's permission, was within Judas. He is the one that is lost. Not Judas.
 
M

mindfulzen

Banned
#88
Aug 4, 2021
586
185
43
#88
Icedaisey said:
Repentance is synonymous with remorse.

Matthew 27:3 Then Judas, which betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

Jesus said, from the cross, father forgive them for they know not what they do. I believe Judas was forgiven in that instant and with his repentance for his betrayal, he was forgiven his act.
However, something that we can't ignore is this.
In the upper room if we read Luke 22 we may presume Judas received what we call communion, along with the other disciples.

Further, Jesus knew what Judas was going to do. He told him to go and do what he had to do, and do it quickly. But, and this is easily missed if we don't read carefully. Satan entered Judas when Jesus gave Judas the morsel of bread that was the symbolic flesh of Jesus.
And knowing this as he would, Jesus then told what would be Satan that had possessed the body of Judas, So Jesus told him, "Hurry! Do what you have to do."

Therein is the issue. It wasn't Judas who went forth, at Jesus' insistence, and betrayed him to the Sadducees of the temple. It was Satan.
And really, that makes sense. Jesus was born to give his life to seal the new covenant. Jesus was to die so to remove Satan's power over death. Therein, Satan, who before has operated as we know according to God's plan (Job), would be the one who would happily turn over the one he'd tried to tempt to obey him, to those who wanted him dead.
Because Jesus' Disciples wouldn't betray Jesus to his enemies. But Satan would be the perfect one to do that and to those very one's Jesus called the Pharisees who thought to call him to account for his actions on Sabbath day, of belonging to their father the Devil. John 8.
This then helps to make sense of Judas' remorse, repentance, once he realized what he'd done. He didn't do it.
But it was done and Jesus was in custody. Which would explain how he felt remorse, returned the silver, and hanged himself. Because the law said, cursed is anyone who hangs on a tree. Matthew 27.

And that curse is also why Jesus was to die on a tree, the cross, to take the sins of the world upon himself.

Jesus had to die on a cross, tree, to fulfill the plan of God. No Disciple would betray him. Of course Satan would have to be the one to occupy the body of a Disciple and do the deed. But Satan wouldn't have known God's plan. He's not going to do something that is going to insure he loses his power over death being he was, and is, lord of this world. John 12:31
And how else, if not for Satan, would Jesus have been killed per God's plan but also unbeknownst to them, that of the Pharisees?

We're not responsible for what Satan does if he occupies our body, possesses us. Why would Judas be any different? Especially when it can't really be called a betrayal, when Jesus, knowing his purpose, told "Judas" to go and do what Jesus knew he had to do. And quickly.

Judas had remorse when he realized what had happened. I believe he was forgiven by Jesus from the cross. Because Jesus knew Satan was within Judas. That's how we know this through the scriptures. And that especially reiterates Jesus words of forgiveness from the cross. "Forgive them for they know not what they do." That was Judas to a T. Satan was in him. Judas didn't know what Satan was doing. That's why the scripture tells us, when Judas realized what he'd done....He didn't realize it while doing it. He realized it when he saw Jesus in the custody of the Pharisee's and Sadducees who wanted him dead.

Satan was the son of perdition. JOHN 17:12 “While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Some think Judas is that son of Perdition. But as we know, Satan, who can do nothing without God's permission, was within Judas. He is the one that is lost. Not Judas.
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You do understand that you will not get a response to a false pasting, with words I never said, but replied to, right? First ever report I think. Try honesty, you might get an honest response.
 
I

Icedaisey

Well-known member
#89
Jul 19, 2021
1,398
475
83
#89
mindfulzen said:
You do understand that you will not get a response to a false pasting,
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Your post 88 is a response. :)
with words I never said, but replied to, right? First ever report I think. Try honesty, you might get an honest response.
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I've no doubt those who read reports will have something to say to those who report falsity.

I quoted YOUR post #84. If you are saying you didn't write that, you may wish to find out who hijacked your account.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#90
Jul 18, 2017
24,454
12,938
113
#90
ResidentAlien said:
There are three legs upon which OSAS stands or falls. Do these verses mean what they supposedly mean, or have they been misunderstood and misapplied?
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You have resorted to Scriptures which do not actually speak of the eternal security of the believer.

So you need to start from there and then determine who falls away from the faith. The eternal security of the believer is the correct doctrine, not "once saved always saved" (which is a bone of contention).
 
M

mindfulzen

Banned
#91
Aug 4, 2021
586
185
43
#91
Icedaisey said:
Your post 88 is a response. :) I've no doubt those who read reports will have something to say to those who report falsity.

I quoted YOUR post #84. If you are saying you didn't write that, you may wish to find out who hijacked your account.
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Hehe, I get it. I post a comment arguing with my own, that Jesus forgave Judas. Twice, OK. Read the changed comment, the wording, I never attacked anybody. Not Judas or peter, you did. And if we get into an argument about this, we can get help from ISPs, who are required by law in most countries to keep 5 year digital backlog. Editing your comment does not work. Do you seek answers? Got questions past scripture?
 
AnnG

AnnG

Member
#92
Aug 22, 2021
88
97
18
#92
I get annoyed with the word "debunked" it usually is someone's opinion. They quote scripture then after say "however".

A great quote I read by - Dr. Earl Rademacher

"I have been saved"
"I am being saved"
"I will be saved"
First one is *past tense" Justification - at the Cross
Second one is "present tense" Sanctification - I'm a work in progress
Third one is "future tense" - Glorification - The results of the previous aspects
All believers will be glorified (resurrected and given a body like Christ), but some will have more glory (i.e. reward) then others. (Berean Seat of Christ).

How many of my sins did Christ take to the Cross 2 thousand years ago? ALL OF THEM!

John 10:29 - My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
 
M

mindfulzen

Banned
#93
Aug 4, 2021
586
185
43
#93
Icedaisey said:
Your post 88 is a response. :) I've no doubt those who read reports will have something to say to those who report falsity.

I quoted YOUR post #84. If you are saying you didn't write that, you may wish to find out who hijacked your account.
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Please put out my 88 and 84 comment for documentation, would be helpful.
 
F

FreeGrace2

Banned
#95
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
#95
rayzor said:
jesus said i have lost none that u have given me.
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Apparently you missed the "except" that followed.

John 17:12 - While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
 
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FreeGrace2

Banned
#96
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
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#96
mindfulzen said:
He could point to anybody, nobody fought for Jesus after he was betrayed, if you read your bible you would know that Peter had much guilt. Peter was given the most trust and failed Jesus, that is one.
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And he fully recovered through repentance. Unlike Judas. Yes, I do read my Bible. Your insinuations are childish.

Judas betrayed him for money, so that is most likely, I agree, but I state he was offered a chance, and he failed, Jesus offered up two chances for him, that was my point. He could refrain after the fact if he wanted to go to heaven.[/QU"OTE]
I asked about where you get those "2 chances" bit. And you simply repeat yourself.

The rest seems a bit emotional, bit angry. I do not do anger anymore, sorry. I wish you the best.
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You seem to have a penchant for reading WHY MORE into posts than is warranted.

I challenged your views and asked for Scriptural support. If that's what you mean by being "a bit emotional, bit angry", then I feel sorry for your hypersensitivity.

I agree that you should not post any more.
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F

FreeGrace2

Banned
#97
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
#97
rayzor said:
mindfulzen .I don't like what the bibles says sometimes.Namely that some r chosen 2 be bad guys before they where born but it's there.Judas is called the son of perdition.Some see his mention in Psalm 109:8
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Be of good cheer. The Bible DOESN'T say that anyone was chosen to be "bad guys before they were born". That's just Calvinist talking points about their warped view of election.

The reality is that God, being omniscient (all knowing), has always known what Judas would do if given the opportunity. And God gave him that opportunity.

God's plan for mankind is explained in Acts 17:26 - From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history (WHEN) and the boundaries of their lands (WHERE).

iow, God specifically places every human being WHEN and WHERE He chooses.

Please don't fall for the silly idea that God caused Judas to betray Jesus just because he was chosen to do it.

What you really don't like is the Calvinist twist of Scripture. To be clear.
 
AnnG

AnnG

Member
#98
Aug 22, 2021
88
97
18
#98
FreeGrace2 said:
Apparently you missed the "except" that followed.

John 17:12 - While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
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Jesus was speaking about Judas who was doomed to destruction.
 
R

rayzor

Banned
#99
Aug 20, 2021
1,863
310
83
#99
FreeGrace2 said:
Be of good cheer. The Bible DOESN'T say that anyone was chosen to be "bad guys before they were born". That's just Calvinist talking points about their warped view of election.

The reality is that God, being omniscient (all knowing), has always known what Judas would do if given the opportunity. And God gave him that opportunity.

God's plan for mankind is explained in Acts 17:26 - From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history (WHEN) and the boundaries of their lands (WHERE).

iow, God specifically places every human being WHEN and WHERE He chooses.

Please don't fall for the silly idea that God caused Judas to betray Jesus just because he was chosen to do it.

What you really don't like is the Calvinist twist of Scripture. To be clear.
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hm u know rascal!..:mad:
 
F

FreeGrace2

Banned
#100
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
#100
Icedaisey said:
Repentance is synonymous with remorse.
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Uh, no. They are different.

The Greek word for repent means a change of mind leading to a change in behavior, which we see in the prodigal son.

The word for remorse is an emotional reaction of feeling sorry for a specific action. Which we don't see in the prodigal son.

Rather than wallowing in self pity and feeling sorry for himself (remorse), he realized his huge error, got up out of the pig sty and returned home to his father. Big difference.

Matthew 27:3 Then Judas, which betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,[/QUOTE]
The Greek word used in the sense of salvation is "metanoia", always translated as 'repent', and involves a change of mind, such as the Jews did when they realized that Jesus wasn't a human blasphemer when He said He was the Son of God, and changed their mind and believed that He WAS the Son of God.

But the Greek word in Matt 27:3 is "metamellomai" which involves regret, which is a negative emotion. The Bible never commands people to have negative emotions, which are quite unhealthy.

Repentance, otoh, doesn't involve negative emotions.

Jesus said, from the cross, father forgive them for they know not what they do. I believe Judas was forgiven in that instant and with his repentance for his betrayal, he was forgiven his act.
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The text says nothing about Judas even being in the vicinity.

Luke 23-
33 When they came to the place called the Skull, they (Roman soldiers) crucified him there, along with the criminals—one on his right, the other on his left. 34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” And they (Roman soldiers) divided up his clothes by casting lots.

However, something that we can't ignore is this.
In the upper room if we read Luke 22 we may presume Judas received what we call communion, along with the other disciples.

Further, Jesus knew what Judas was going to do. He told him to go and do what he had to do, and do it quickly. But, and this is easily missed if we don't read carefully. Satan entered Judas when Jesus gave Judas the morsel of bread that was the symbolic flesh of Jesus.
And knowing this as he would, Jesus then told what would be Satan that had possessed the body of Judas, So Jesus told him, "Hurry! Do what you have to do."

Therein is the issue.
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The issue from this text is that Jesus was going to die on the cross even for Judas. This proves that Jesus died for everyone, not just what Calvinists call "the elect".

It wasn't Judas who went forth, at Jesus' insistence, and betrayed him to the Sadducees of the temple. It was Satan.
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Guess what. Satan ENTERED into Judas. So quit trying to defend him as a believer.

John 13:27 - As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.

This then helps to make sense of Judas' remorse, repentance, once he realized what he'd done. He didn't do it.
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The bolded words don't fit or make sense.
 
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