Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

No, that would be OSNGU

OK, it appears you have trouble connecting some dots.

This is what I said:
FreeGrace2 said:
Sir, I believe all that Jesus said. He is the One who gives the gift of eternal life (Jn 10:28), and He gives it to those who believe (Jn 5:24). And the result of receiving eternal life is that the recipient SHALL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).

Now, if you can't figure out that I DID answer your question with a resounding YES, CT will be in heaven, I guess a serious discussion isn't in the works here.

Where do you get the notion that it is one's assurance that keeps one saved? Is that what you think? That's my take on what you have posted.

Once he ceased to believe that God existed, why would "assurance" even be an issue?

You have suggested that a sheep (saved person) can become a goat (unsaved person). Why haven't you addressed post #180?

It's because you know you can't prove any of these UN-doings. Which you'd have to do to support your theology.

FreeGrace2 said:
Silly man. That's what I did. I started from Scripture. But maybe you haven't been following very closely.

In John 5:24 Jesus said those who believe (in the present tense) have (as in POSSESS) eternal life. Also in the present tense.

So, WHEN one believes, they ARE a believer, and they HAVE/POSSESS eternal life. Got it so far?

Then, in John 10:28 Jesus stated in very clear words that recipients of eternal life (check Jn 5:24 for who that is) SHALL NEVER PERISH.

There is no "man-made doctrine" in my statements, unless you just want to emphasize Jesus' humanity. Then it's correct.

But, unless you can show from Scripture some mention of:
a sheep becoming a goat,
or a saved person becoming unsaved,
or a justified person becoming unjustified,
or a regenerate person becoming unregenerate,
or a born again person becoming unborn,
you ain't got a point.

Therefore, OSNG is true.

But, humor me a bit. Thanks.
<sigh> No, it isn't.

This clearly suggests that there will be no serious discussion here. I wish you were kidding. You started by using the sheep to goat theory. I merely borrowed the words instead of "saved" and "unsaved".

In fact, John 5:24 and 10:28 prove beyond any doubt that salvation is permanent, and that from the MOMENT of saving faith in Christ.

But, as I said, humor me by proving that I am wrong by executing both verses to show how far from the truth of those verses.

Well, thanks for your generosity! However, I prefer to state what the Word of God says. Such as John 5:24 and 10:28 when discussing eternal security.

However, there's plenty more verses/passages that also teach it.

Well, thanks for a very sore tummy. Oh, and jaw as well.

Well, they would be wrong. The verses say nothing about "before losing faith".

I just showed you verses where believers were removed for their sin.

Except one side would have clear Scripture and the other side wouldn't.

Well, I love what John 5:24 and 10:28 say: They are some of the most beautiful promises in the Word to those who are believing.

But they do not even remotely teach OSAS, nor does any other verse in the entire Bible.

Good bye and God bless - I am probably done on CC till at least Friday: hopefully we can keep the unclogged latrine eternally secure!

Well, that is quite an admission of such lack of discernment then.

Why would you wish (hope) for a latrine to be eternally secure but not believe that God keeps His word about His own children?

I don’t see John 10:28 as a proof text for OSAS. I think it is important to look at the preceding verses in John 10:26-27 to see how the Lord holds us accountable in our relationship with Him. I understand that some who believe in OSAS state that if a sheep is no longer following Christ, that means they believe they were never a true sheep to begin with.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. (So the sheep of Christ believe in Him)
27 MY SHEEP hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (the sheep also hear His voice and follow Him)
28 And I give unto them (who is this “them”? It is the same sheep who believe in Jesus, hear His voice and follow Him) eternal life (1st promise); and they shall never perish (2nd promise), neither shall any man pluckthem out of my hand (3rd promise).
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.These three promises are given, as clearly shown, to the sheep who:

believe in Him
know Him (John 10:14)
hear His voice
follow Him


So, the OSAS doctrine is that God is greater than all and "no man" can pluck us out of his hand. According to this doctrine "No man" would include us and our own will. As Christians, we have to know Him, hear His voice, and follow Him as our salvation is conditional. It is a free gift that can be rejected. I believe it possible for a born again Christian to fall out of the Spirit of God, and then continue on rejecting the Lord unto death.

Calvinists/Reformed perhaps don't see the possibility of God laying down two alternatives, pointing out the eternal and unchangeable consequences of each, and giving a person the choice, especially when God's will favors one alternative and abhors the other.

Calvinists argue that if a person can possibly choose the alternative that God does not wish, then that person's will can prevail over God's will, so the will of that person is the sovereign will, and God's will is subject to that person's own will.

This view overlooks the fact that our Lord himself was tempted and could have disobeyed his Father's will. He said that he would yield to his Father's will; but he also said that he could call upon his Father for twelve legions of angels to escape the cross —even though the Father’s will, written in prophecy, would then fail to be fulfilled (Matthew 26:39,53).

I see why you mention John 5:24. The natural question that follows is, “what does it mean to believe in Jesus?” To me, salvation is conditional. I think the believer must continue to repent when he/she falls from grace, as I do not think God's grace is irresistible. I do think that a Christian can stop believing in Jesus at anytime throughout the course of their life. They do this by returning to unrepentant and willful sin. It is my view that it is possible for a born again Christian to fall away and become one of the lost the Lord mentioned in Matthew 7:21-23, or Galatians 5:19-21.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

19Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, cdivisions, 21envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that dthose who do2 such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


There is of course the case of Judas, a born again follower losing his salvation. He was given the power to cast out devils in the sixth chapter of Mark. 7 And He (Jesus) called unto him the twelve (which obviously include Judas), and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them POWER over unclean spirits (so Judas Iscariot was given power over unclean Spirits);


13 And they CAST OUT MANY DEVILS (and using the power given by the Lord, Judas Iscariot whom was sent as one of the twelve cast out many devils), and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them. Judas was given the Power of the Holy Ghost which enabled him to cast out many devils. That is an example of someone who has received the Holy Spirit and has been born again. Judas was saved at that time and one of the sheep the Father gave Jesus in John 17:12. Jesus betrayed the Lord so that the Word of God would be fulfilled.

There is also the case of Simon the Sorcerer. Some Arminians point out this example to demonstrate the possibility of salvation being lost. Although there is no mention of Simon losing his salvation, Peter does mention to him he is on the way to perdition if he does not repent. To me, this demonstrates how a Christian should continue to ask the Lord for forgiveness after a transgression is committed. If a Christian can fall from grace by trusting in His own righteousness, I don't see why a Christian can't fall from grace by being overcome by unrepentant sin. I don't see why a Christian can't leave the Spirit of God and disobey Him, continuing on in unrepentant sin of his/her own free will.


Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.13 Then SIMON HIMSELF BELIEVED ALSO: and when he was BAPTIZED, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

The information above, which Luke writes down for us in Acts, is that Simon believed and was baptized. That will absolutely make the reader understand Simon was saved. Or else Luke would have totally confused us with his information about Simon.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Peter tells Simon that he is on the way to perdition and that he needs to repent so that God can forgive him for his wicked acts. Peter tells Simon that his heart is not right, and of course that means he couldn’t have been “saved” (spiritually alive) during this particular time.

Acts 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.

The OSAS debate mostly involves these four theological questions. "Can a Christian fall from grace?" Is God's grace irresistible? Is man totally depraved? Is it possible for a Christian to return to willful and unrepentant sin and lose salvation? I am no theologian, but I can understand why this debate continues on.

I reject all of TULIP but understand why many of my fellow Christians accept those doctrines. It is my view that man is depraved, not totally depraved. Total depravity is of course the foundational doctrine upon which the other five points of Calvinism stand. Here are three arguments against that doctrine for anyone who is interested in reading them. http://lhim.org/blog/2014/02/06/three-arguments-against-total-depravity/. I know that most all of my brothers and sisters in the Lord who hold to OSAS are probably already aware of this.

You're certainly free to believe in the false contrivance of men called conditional works based faith.

If one can lose salvation, it never was salvation.

That thankfully isn't what Jesus died to seal for the elect for all time.

An interesting read regarding Calvinism/Arminianism here for those who might be interested:

https://denverseminary.edu/the-denv...ne-the-heart-of-what-is-wrong-with-calvinism/

Man made doctrine of eternal irrevocable salvation?
You've not read the parable of the prodigal son?

An "unbeliever" who "once was" Christian is no longer saved?

Please post the scripture where Jesus stated all that God applies to the person who heeds hus call snd comes to salvation by God's grace is reversed and stripped away by God. So that "unbeliever" returns to their former state as a fallen unredeemed sinner.

That would be because of your preconceived bias then. It is as clear as the day. Jesus made the point that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

And, previously, in John 5:24, Jesus made the point that believers POSSESS (have) eternal life. So, from the MOMENT of believing in Jesus for salvation, that person possesses eternal life and shall never perish.

To argue otherwise is to admit a failure to understand clear English.

No, it's NOT important, and I'll tell you why. v.27 has NO wording that would suggest listening and obeying are requirements for receiving eternal life.

The single requirement for receiving eternal life is faith in Christ. And these verses prove that claim.

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Once His sheep, always His sheep.

Nope. John 10:14 isn't a requirement for salvation. Hearing His voice is how one believes; hearing the gospel per Rom 10.

Following Him is a command for BELIEVERS to obey. Not for unbelievers to obey for salvation.

That is correct, because "no one" means "no person". So, if you are a "person" even you cannot undo what God has done for you.

If you think you have enough power to undo what God has done for all believers, please show me the verses that teach this.

This is what God has done for every believer:
1. regenerated them Titus 3:5
2. justified them mRom 5:1
3. saved them Acts 16:31
4. elected them for service 1 Cor 1:27,28, Eph 1:4
5. sealed them with the Holy Spirit Eph 1:13,14
6. new creatures 2 Cor 5;17
7. sons of God John 1;12, Gal 3:26

So, if any of these things can be shown from Scripture to to undone, show me please.

This is heretical. Salvation is permanent from the moment of belief in Christ for salvation.

Read over the list above until it begins to sink in. Salvation is NOT conditioned upon any effort on our part. If that were true, salvation would ultimately be by works. Our works. Not the singular work of Christ on the cross.

Works salvation is blasphemous to the work of Christ.

Not by one who has already believed and been given that gift. See the 5 things that God does for every believer and try to prove that any of them can be undone.

The free gift IS rejected by those who NEVER believe.

But once the gift is received, the recipient SHALL NEVER PERISH. John 10:28 is very clear.

What do you mean by "fall out of the Spirit of God". God's Holy Spirit is IN us. How does one "fall out" of the Spirit? Scripture, please.

Part 2 follows:

Part 2:

Calvinists who believe any of this are just very confused. Choosing against God's will doesn't mean that the person "prevails over God's will" as if more powerful than God. That is just silly.

1 Tim 2-
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

This passage teaches that God our Savior WANTS everyone to be saved. So that IS His will. Now, does everyone get saved? Of course not. Hell is filled with many many people. So the whole notion you shared above is fallacious.

God wants everyone to be saved. That's why Christ died for everyone (v.6). So that whosoever believes in Him will never perish.

Certainly you are free to believe whatever you want. But you're going to have to prove your belief from Scripture. The single condition for salvation is believing in Christ for it. Acts 16:31.

Your view is really just a works salvation system. You have to keep doing things to either be or stay saved.

Yes, that is true. Jesus said that about the second soil in Luke 8:13. So what? Charles Templeton mentored a young Billy Graham. CT left the faith over a misunderstanding of something in the OT. He was still a child of God.

They do this by returning to unrepentant and willful sin. It is my view that it is possible for a born again Christian to fall away and become one of the lost the Lord mentioned in Matthew 7:21-23, or Galatians 5:19-21.

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’[/QUOTE]
What was missing from the crowd in this passage? There was NO mention of trusting in the work of Jesus. What was the only prominence? Emphasis on THEIR works. They were like your theology; working for salvation. And what did Jesus tell them? "I NEVER knew you". What He meant was that they were NEVER saved. They never believed in Him.

This passage is parallel to 2 others; 1 Cor 6 and Eph 5. This says nothing about losing salvation. In fact, "inheriting the kingdom of God" refers to having reward in the kingdom.

These 2 passages have "not inherit the kingdom" but Eph 5:5 has "will have NO inheritance IN the kingdom". I emphasized the word "no" to show that Paul equated "not inherit" with "no inheritance". And he didn't say such people wouldn't enter the kingdom. He was specific. They would have NO inheritance IN the kingdom.

No, he never believed. You are only supposing or presuming.

John 6:70,71
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Now, let's back up a bit, for context.

6:64 - Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

This verse is a clear reference to Judas. He never believed. So he never lose salvation. He never had it.

This doesn't prove anything, and certainly not salvation. Are you not aware that the false prophet in the Tribulation will perform miracles? An unsaved person can cast out demons. Satan can simply order such a demon out when a false teacher/prophet makes the command. What better way to convince a crowd that a false teacher is legit than by performing miracles.

I love this one. luke uses the exact same words to describe the crowd who responded to Philip's preaching as Simon.

Acts 8-
12 But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.

Was Philip lying, or just confused? No. He wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Are you not aware that there are NO verses in the Bible that mention anyone losing salvation?

Correct.

No it doesn't mean that at all. Do you really believe that every believer's heart is "only right" all the time? Every time a believer sins, their heart is NOT right.

No one is saved by repentance. Peter was telling Simon to get right with the Lord. This is an issue of fellowship, not relationship.

Calvinists/reformed are confused. Man IS totally depraved. But that doesn't mean he can't respond to the gospel. That's where the Calvinists go off the rail.

I believe in eternal security because of the very clear words of the Lord.

That's exactly what I am saying to you it is against all scripture to believe the church is saved by works or deeds, we are saved by grace. Therefore these who do gain an inheritance because of deeds cannot be the church.

Evangelicals have dodged this question for too long.

Did you consider the scripture Jesus said concerning anyone "who will so much as give a drink of water to one of these little ones who believe in Me will not go unrewarded"?

There you have it again they did mercy to the church. Jesus said "if anyone is who not against us is for us"

The question is what IS their inheritance? not heaven

Blessed are they who do hunger and thirst for righteousness for theirs is the kingdom of heaven
Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth.

It's no use waving your hand dismissively and saying the sheep are the church, look at how Jesus addresses them

"come ye blessed of MY Father ...." [not your Father, or the Father]
"Inasmuch as ye did it to one of the least of these My brethren ..." [not your brethren or the brethren]

God's word is not so clumsily written YOU KNOW THAT, if the sheep themselves we the brethren this statement would not have been made, it doesn't make sense grammatically nor is it good exegesis.

"these My brethren" are the church.

That is true

Never-the-less we must hear the word of God on the matter.

Come o blessed of My Father inherit the kingdom prepare for you from the foundation of the world for...
... FOR I was hungry and you gave Me food, I was thirsty and you gave Me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed Me, I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you visited Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.

Hi Evmur,

I understand what you are saying. The 'church' is saved in a different manner than the 'sheep'. Now you are playing a slight of hand with words when you say this: "it is against all scripture to believe the church is saved by works or deeds, we are saved by grace. Therefore these who do gain an inheritance because of deeds cannot be the church."

What you really mean is that there are two ways to salvation one by grace, and one by works deeds/merit.

You say:

Church/brethern = saved by grace

Sheep (wider mercy) = saved by deeds -by their own merit. (and not just the sheep anyone who does a good work, you said this :



The whole bible states there is only one way of salvation and that is By grace, through faith and in Christ alone. Good deeds or merit will never save anyone. I'm afraid your "wider mercy", two ways of salvation model does not fit within the teaching of scripture nor orthodoxy.


This is not true Evmur, you have taken a classic dispensational view and added your liberal wider mercy view, The classic dispensationalist never say the sheep are saved by their deeds/their own merit. In fact they say the sheep are saved by grace through, faith in Christ!


Do you remember saying this?


My advice is for you to go and actually read what Spurgeon said.. He certainly wouldn't be agreeing with you. Scriptural truth (revelation) does not move on... "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." (Heb 13:8). God does not change and neither does his word.

And, since you say evangelicals have not answered your liberal wider mercy view let me leave with you with what (dispensational) evangelicals actually say please take note this refutes your liberalism:

---------------------------
"In the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, we are looking at man redeemed and saved, and man condemned and lost. A casual reading seems to suggest that salvation is the result of good works. The “sheep” acted charitably, giving food, drink, and clothing to the needy. The “goats” showed no charity. This seems to result in salvation for the sheep and damnation for the goats.

However, Scripture does not contradict itself, and the Bible clearly and repeatedly teaches that salvation is by faith through the grace of God and not by our good works (see John 1:12; Acts 15:11; Romans 3:22-24; Romans 4:4-8; Romans 7:24-25; Romans 8:12; Galatians 3:6-9; and Ephesians 2:8-10). In fact, Jesus Himself makes it clear in the parable that the salvation of the “sheep” is not based on their works—their inheritance was theirs “since the creation of the world” (Matthew 25:34), long before they could ever do any good works!

The good works mentioned in the parable are not the cause of salvation but the effect of salvation. As Christians we become like Christ (see Romans 8:29; 2 Corinthians 3:18; and Colossians 2:6-7). Galatians 5:22 tells us that the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self-control. Good works in a Christian’s life are the direct overflow of these traits, and are only acceptable to God because of the relationship that exists between servant and Master, the saved and their Savior, the sheep and their Shepherd (see Ephesians 2:10).

The core message of the Parable of the Sheep and Goats is that God’s people will love others. Good works will result from our relationship to the Shepherd. Followers of Christ will treat others with kindness, serving them as if they were serving Christ Himself. The unregenerate live in the opposite manner. While “goats” can indeed perform acts of kindness and charity, their hearts are not right with God, and their actions are not for the right purpose – to honor and worship God. -https://www.gotquestions.org/parable-sheep-goats.html "
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Your doing a disservice to the Gospel paid at great cost and you are misrepresenting dispensationalists. (I'm not even a dispensationalists).

yep

These are characteristics of those who have been saved by faith.

Not requirements

That would make people having to earn salvation. Which no one can do

Good morning,
Many people are concerned about “falling from grace”.
I believe scripture explains itself, so to find the answer we must look at what scripture says.
I only know of one way to fall from grace and that is given in Gal 5…”4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law; you have fallen from grace.”
Paul is saying if you return to the Law for justification/salvation, you have severed yourself from Christ and have fallen from grace.
But that does not mean you cannot repent and return to the grace of Christ.
In Hebrews, the writer describes people who existed during a time of special operations of the Spirit. Jesus gave the Spirit on Pentecost in Acts 2, in fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy.
Remember, there was no New Testament Scripture at that time. The NT canon was being written.
So the Spirit gave them recall of the things Jesus had said.
The writer in Hebrews describes those who have been specially endowed with that ability by the Spirit. If such a person as that has “fallen away” (returned to the law) they cannot be renewed again to come to repentance since they put Jesus to shame by denying His Grace despite having been endowed by the Spirit to recall Jesus’ testimony and speak and teach under the Spirit’s direction. Such a person does not exist in today’s world.
No one today is authorized to create new scripture, as were those of the first century, therefore, Heb 6 should not be applied to people today.
May God bless you in every way.

Lol…Calvinists redefine “works” to suit their doctrine.
Rom 10. “8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.”

MT 10. “32 “Therefore, everyone who confesses Me before people, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before people, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.”
Confession results in SALVATION. Confession is “DONE” with the “mouth”, a person’s voice. But to Calvinists it still is “non-work”.
See how that goes? Lol