Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

1. I know what the Greek word means I have studied it in great detail
2. the demons did trust there was one god, they knew it, they knew him personally unlike humans they have actually met him.

james is saying, if you believe in one God you do well, his point is believing there is one god is not enough

maybe you are right. and there's the whole teaching about being born again - but still, He also appeared to like and value people doing good. i don't see it as faith vs works like its one or the other its part of some greater thing

It depends on the topic

1. Is the topic being saved, or staying saved.

2. is the topic sanctification or Christian growth.

If it is number 2. Then works are a great thing and God values this and rewards us for these works

if its number 1. Then works are filthy rags, And it is a false gospel. And these works will be rejected. Because no one can earn salvation by works.

I do not believe they belong in God's house ... we are God's house. This is a BIG topic embracing other matters and is a little off topic on this thread.

There is to be a NEW Heaven and a NEW Earth, we are heaven bound, already we are seated in heavenly places. So who is to inherit the Earth?

The MEEK will inherit the Earth.

This whole subject hinges upon the issue of the 1, 000 year reign on Earth of Christ with His saints. Unfortunately not many people want to talk about. But as a doctrine it was dropped in the 4th century by the Catholics because they had made a dirty deal with Rome, and the Romans aspired themselves to reign for a thousand years. To this day RC priests dress as 4th century Roman senators to say mass.

You cain't take doctrines out of the gospel like that it has a knock on effect on other doctrines.

Instead of preaching Paul's understanding the church reverted to the Jewish understanding which is Amillennialism. It squeezes out the rapture [where only the church is raised] and the 1, 000 year reign.

The last and final resurrection comes at the end of the 1,000 years. Amillennialism has the 2nd coming all mixed up in one event, so the next coming of our Lord is to judge the living and the dead, the living they suppose is the church and the dead everybody else.
The sheeps and goats.

But this is not what Paul teaches. He teaches that the church is raised first [so shall we ever be with the Lord] how then can we be the ones standing in the judgement? John teaches exactly the same regarding the 1st resurrection [happy and blest are they who partake in the 1st resurrection] The 1,000 years and then the 2nd resurrection of the quick and the dead.

But the church Paul teaches come with the Lord when He comes to judge, and we see them when He addresses the sheeps "inasmuch as ye ministered to one of the least of THESE MY BRETHREN.

These My brethren are the church. .... But the righteous sheep have a reward. This makes for a much wider mercy than is generally preached.

Yes so true.

Luke’s version says it this way —


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

• lest they should believe and be saved

Here we see the basis for salvation which is to believe.


These on the rocky soil did n fact believe —

• who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

However, they did not continue to believe, and endure to the end.



Believe = Saved

Believe for a while = saved for a while




Lost Sheep —


“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7

• Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’
• I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

JPT

Do you believe Isaiah? or do you believe Christ? [I saw that puzzled look]

You believe BOTH you say, so do I.

But if what you say here is true then Isaiah was wrong, what does He say about the latter days?

It shall come to pass in the latter days that Israel will be the highest mountain and Jerusalem the highest hill.

and all the nations shall flow to it
and many peoples shall come and say
"Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob that He may teach us His ways and that we may walk in His paths."
For out of Zion shall go forth the law and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
He shall judge between the nations and shall decide for many peoples
and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares and their spears into pruning hooks
nations shall not lift up sword against nation
neither shall they learn war anymore.

What does Jesus say?

You will hear of wars and rumours of war
nation shall rise up against nation
there will be earthquakes and famine in divers places

Two completely different pictures of the end times.

The solution is Jesus was describing the end of the age, Isaiah was speaking about the age to come. The Millennial age.

The final judgement comes at the end of the Millennium.

We's the good soil the seed is 100% successful. Good soil here simply means cultivated or prepared beforehand to receive the seed ... the other places were not prepared.

not sure what your trying to get at here. The great white throne is the end of everything that we know here on this earth. The Melli I’m is done, the final rebellion of satan is crushed. And everyone of all time and all placed who rejected God are delivered to christ at that time for the final judgment.

They will be tried for their works, and found wanting. Because their works could not pay for their sin.

Since they rejected Gods provision for their sin. They are left to their own works to save them. Which will never save anyone.

The end result will be they ALL will be cast into the lake of fire. With satan and his angels.

A child of God goes through a “bema” judgment, Which is a rewards judgment. As their works are tried.

A non child of God goes through this great white throne “kronos” judgment, which is a criminal judgment. And no one is found innocent, hence they all recieve the judgment we all deserve. Because they were never saved

Just to be clear, there is no teaching in the Bible about "staying saved". Jesus is very clear about salvation.

WHEN one believes in Him for salvation, they receive and possess eternal life. Jn 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Then, in John 10:28 He said that recipients of etenral life shall never perish.

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."

Once saved, always saved has been affirmed. The title of this thread is bunk.

Amen! Accusations AGAINST it are MUCH EASIER Than studying ALL Of God's Profitable Scriptures, Correct?:

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST!
God's FREE Gift of ETERNAL Life!

Unlike saving belief, temporary, shallow belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? It doesn't. Also the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they are not saved.

lest they should believe and be saved

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Believe unto salvation. A shallow temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away does not represent saving belief.

Not all belief is the same. Even though this shallow ground hearer in Luke 8:13 is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? I will explain the reasons.

First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

IN CONTRAST TO - Mark 4:8 - But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Luke 8:15 says, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. So the rocky soil represents a person not properly prepared in heart and the seed planted ends up with a lack of "root" (lack of being firmly planted, or established) and good soil represents a person properly prepared in heart who having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keeps it and bears fruit with patience.

Firmly rooted and established belief = saved.

False. Shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away does not = saved. John has portrayed people who "believe" (at least to some level) but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus which "falls short of firmly rooted and established belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. We can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly "believe unto salvation" and become children of God (John 1:12; 3:18) but were instead children of the devil.

In context, we see that Jesus is directing this parable to the Pharisees and scribes who complained, saying that Jesus receives sinners and eats with them, while failing to recognize because of pride and self righteousness that they were sinners themselves. The main point of this parable is not that a Christian lost their salvation and had to regain it back again, but the absolute importance of finding the one lost sheep -- there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

You try to make this parable teach that this one "sheep" in this case was a saved person who lost their salvation and had to get saved all over again, but to no avail. You conveniently forget what Jesus said in Matthew 5:5 - These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

In Luke 19:10, we read - for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost. Not lost their salvation and had to get saved all over again.

i don't worry about stuff like this. i trust God - we know we're called to preach salvation by grace not works but the attempt to humanly know exactly how it works i'm not sure is profitable beyond a certain point, when there is a grey area in what motivates doing good works and how God will judge that it could never be unjust. i'm not saying they save but they're kind of hopeful. so i have a positive outlook generally. what i mean is from a 'worldly' point of view with zero knowledge of grace, good works looks like what saves - even though we know it's not what its about

I do worry when people are using works to promote how one is saved or maintains salvation.

Paul spent most of his writings trying to defeat ths humanistic gospel of works. Because it gave people a false hope and led people to hell who thought they were on the right path.

Thats what I meant by context

If people are talking about works of sanctification. Let’s talk about them Gods love them. God rejoices and we all love to do them

When it comes to works people do to maintain or in the end be saved. God hates them, We shoudl hate them. And we should not hold back apposing them, as it would be like enabling someone to send themselves to hell. While thinking they are headed to heaven.

In the parable of the 4 soils, it is instructive that only the first soil didn't produce a plant. The 3 others all did. The difference is that soil 2 and 3 didn't produce fruit, for various reasons. I believe the production of plants implies and represents new life, since the seed germinated and became a plant.

The point of Jesus' parable is about fruit production, which are deeds, works that come from salvation. Of the 3 saved soils, only 1 was productive.

It is a fallacy to claim that all truly saved people will produce fruit. It's said all over the place, but there are no verses that teach that.

In fact, the preponderance of verses commanding and encouraging production of fruit proves that it isn't automatic or guaranteed.

Believe unto salvation. A shallow temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away does not represent saving belief.

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Yes, it does. The Bible never warns against "a shallow temporary belief" as a non saving faith.

Faith in Christ for salvation saves in every case. Including Simon the sorcerer. But even though he was saved, his heart wasn't right with the Lord as he wanted to buy the gift of giving the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands. Peter's rebuke of him shows he was saved. Otherwise, Peter would have given him the gospel message. What good is a rebuke to an unsaved person? That won't save him.

And, Luke describes Simon's actions the same way as he described all the people who responded to Philip's message.

Why put quote marks around "believed", as if it wasn't real? Luke didn't use quote marks. The Bible doesn't describe faith in degrees, as if only a certain amount will result in salvation.

Jesus taught a parable about a mustard seed, the smallest of seeds, yet grows up to be a largest of garden plants. Mark 4:30-32

There is no way to argue that saving faith is quantitatively more than unsaving faith. Because the Bible doesn't teach that.

The seed that fell on the rocky soil did not have much earth; and immediately it sprang up because it had no depth of earth (it sprang up but no crop sprang up) and and because it had no root it withered away. (Mark 4:6) There was some motion and movement toward growth, unlike the seed that fell by the wayside, yet the condition changed from sprang up (although it did not yet reach it's desired goal) to withered away. New life is demonstrated by fruit. A plant that has no root and fails to produce fruit does not represent new life.

In regards to the seed that is sown among thorns, the person hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful, produces nothing, yields nothing. It was choked out before reaching it's desired goal.
IN CONTRAST TO - the seed that fell on good soil, the person hears the word and understands it, who INDEED BEARS FRUIT with patience (perseverance) and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty. *All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23)

"Faith without works is dead" and only the 4th soil produced crops of any size.* There is mention of a difference in the size of the crops, but no consequences or warnings are given to the lesser producers. Only the 4th soil was referred to as "good ground" and produced a crop (fruit) and there is no mention of choking or withering away thereafter.

It is a fallacy to claim that a truly saved person will produce no fruit at all. James chapter 2 makes it clear that "faith without works is dead." (James 2:14-26) Dead faith is not saving faith.

Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root.

Yes, it does. The Bible never warns against "a shallow temporary belief" as a non saving faith.

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I have already shown you otherwise in post #311.

Faith in Christ for salvation saves in every case.

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Authentic faith in Christ for salvation saves, yet a shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away is not authentic saving faith in Christ.

Including Simon the sorcerer. But even though he was saved, his heart wasn't right with the Lord as he wanted to buy the gift of giving the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands. Peter's rebuke of him shows he was saved. Otherwise, Peter would have given him the gospel message. What good is a rebuke to an unsaved person? That won't save him.

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Simon the sorcerer is said to have “believed and was baptized” at the preaching of Philip (Acts 8:13) but later, when Simon offers the apostles money to have their ability to impart the Holy Spirit (verses 18–19), he is rebuked by Peter. Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity. (verses 20-24)

You called that saved? Even though we read that Simon "believed," the remainder of the verse hints at the true object of his belief: "the miracles and signs which were done." No saving belief in Christ.

Not all belief is the same. You simply give the word "believe" a broad brushed definition of "saved" and with that logic, you would have to say that the demons are saved because they "believe" that "there is one God." (James 2:19) Keep in mind the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19 as it is in Acts 16:31 - .."believe" on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.. yet the demons are not saved.

Yet a shallow, temporary belief that has no root and withers away doesn't grow.

It's not so much about quantitatively as it is about OBJECT and CONTENT. The Bible clearly teaches that not all belief is the same and not all belief saves. As I previously explained, if you read in John 8:31-59, you will see that the Jews who were said to have "believed in Him" turned out to be: slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. So we can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly "believe in His name/believe in Him" and become children of God. (John 1:12; 3:18) but were instead children of the devil.

In John chapter 6, we see that many of Jesus' so called disciples complained and were offended (verses 60-61) about what Jesus said in verses 51-59. These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says "do not believe." (John 6:64) They also walked with Him no more. So apparently, these alleged disciples of Jesus set out to be learners and followers of Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, then as soon as Jesus said something that was hard for them to understand and did not line up with their expectations, they left Him, which demonstrates no saving belief.

So to believe in Christ "unto salvation" goes beyond mere "mental assent" belief in the existence of Christ. It also goes beyond merely believing that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened." Even the demons believe that. *We must believe from the heart (Romans 10:9) in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ by TRUSTING in the death, burial and resurrection as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16) Saving belief continues and does not wither away.

Jesus said these “believed”.


Tell what more does a person need to do to be saved?



But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:13



Jesus stated that the requirement to be saved, is believe. What are you saying the requirement to be saved is?



Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Luke 8:12







JPT

Amen! The other places represent sinners who were not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" (in a shallow way) and "rejoice" (emotional response) at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

I wonder if I can say this kindly

It is the folks who believe they can/have lost their salvation who receive the word with joy but then get blown away with doubt and condemnation. They are not steadfast and sure as we are commanded to be. They never seem to able to throw down their roots deep into the soil of God's love.

Their testimony is spoiled.

They can never preach with assurance "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" for there is a hesitancy in their hearts, salvation to them is conditional, rather it is only probation.

You can't even begin to think of fighting the devil until you KNOW he is forever defeated in your life.

I think we are at crossed wires. I believe in eternal life as a gift.

The problem with your reasoning is that you are not listening to the Lord, the Lord is truth not you. The Lord tells us sins that are not forgiven kills,that is truth. Scripture doesn't say it depends on when the unforgiven sin happens, sin today is the very same sin as sin tomorrow. The Lord says unforgiven sin kills.