Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked
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FreeGrace2 said:
James wasn't even discussing "saving faith". He was discussing that believers NEED TO demonstrate their faith to others so that others can see their faith.
A rather common reaction when first presented with the truth of James 2.
So you think God didn't already know what Abraham would do? He's omniscient, you know. What Abraham did was for the benefit of others, who could SEE his faith. Did you know that Abraham was very rich and had a lot of servants? Do you think Abraham offered Isaac in secret?
Not only that, but God preserved Abraham's work for humanity to read.
See above.
Do you understand what hypocrisy is and means? When a person doesn't live up to their claims, they are viewed as a hypocrite. Exactly like the example James gave in 2:15,16.
btw, 1 John 3:18 is parallel to what James wrote about:
"Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth."
iow, words/speech is meaningless apart from action.
That justification is salvation, and NOT in view in James. That's why Martin Luther was so confused with James. Paul's use of justification WAS about salvation.
James was using 'justification' to mean approval.
James 2:14-26 can be summarized by v.18 - But someone will say, You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
The problem is that translators who include quote marks goofed by putting the endquote after the first "deeds". That renders the whole verse confusing.
The "someone" is making the point that he is ABLE to "show his faith by his deeds". And he is challenging another to demonstrate their faith "without deeds", which is impossible.
See? Not confusing at all. James wanted his audience to show their faith to others. The ONLY WAY to do that is by deeds. No other way.
Here are some verses that prove that our lifestyle before others is important.
Rom 12:17 - Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone.
Rom 14:18 - because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.
Luke 16:15 - He said to them (pharisees), you are the ones who justifiy yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight.
Col 4:5 - Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every opportunity.
1 Pet 2:12 - Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.
1 Pet 2:15 - For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people.
Notice that is our ACTIONS (deeds) that silence others. iow, they SEE what we do.
1 Thess 4:12 - so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.
Respect = approval = justification in the eyes of men
1 Tim 3:7 - He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.
Again, respect, approval, justification in the eyes of men
2 Cor 8:21 - For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of man.
If this verse doesn't convince you, you don't want to be.
1 Jn 3:18 - Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.
James wasn't even discussing "saving faith". He was discussing that believers NEED TO demonstrate their faith to others so that others can see their faith.
A rather common reaction when first presented with the truth of James 2.
So you think God didn't already know what Abraham would do? He's omniscient, you know. What Abraham did was for the benefit of others, who could SEE his faith. Did you know that Abraham was very rich and had a lot of servants? Do you think Abraham offered Isaac in secret?
Not only that, but God preserved Abraham's work for humanity to read.
See above.
Do you understand what hypocrisy is and means? When a person doesn't live up to their claims, they are viewed as a hypocrite. Exactly like the example James gave in 2:15,16.
btw, 1 John 3:18 is parallel to what James wrote about:
"Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth."
iow, words/speech is meaningless apart from action.
That justification is salvation, and NOT in view in James. That's why Martin Luther was so confused with James. Paul's use of justification WAS about salvation.
James was using 'justification' to mean approval.
James 2:14-26 can be summarized by v.18 - But someone will say, You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
The problem is that translators who include quote marks goofed by putting the endquote after the first "deeds". That renders the whole verse confusing.
The "someone" is making the point that he is ABLE to "show his faith by his deeds". And he is challenging another to demonstrate their faith "without deeds", which is impossible.
See? Not confusing at all. James wanted his audience to show their faith to others. The ONLY WAY to do that is by deeds. No other way.
Here are some verses that prove that our lifestyle before others is important.
Rom 12:17 - Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone.
Rom 14:18 - because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.
Luke 16:15 - He said to them (pharisees), you are the ones who justifiy yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight.
Col 4:5 - Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every opportunity.
1 Pet 2:12 - Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.
1 Pet 2:15 - For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people.
Notice that is our ACTIONS (deeds) that silence others. iow, they SEE what we do.
1 Thess 4:12 - so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.
Respect = approval = justification in the eyes of men
1 Tim 3:7 - He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.
Again, respect, approval, justification in the eyes of men
2 Cor 8:21 - For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of man.
If this verse doesn't convince you, you don't want to be.
1 Jn 3:18 - Little children, let us not love with word or with tongue, but in deed and truth.
Whyever would you say that if a statement is made that God gave the spirit of the law and wants His people to live with Him in their hearts instead of living with sin in their hearts, it is pushing law? Does this mean that you are speaking for lawlessness? Do you think there is a discord between living for Christ and being forgiven of our sins? I don[t think the Lord is telling us to want to sin, but the Lord DOES tell us to obey Christ. Christ is creation and the spirit of the law is part of creation. Why are you so terribly against it?
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Yes we know that repentance and faith have it’s a difference but sometimes in the scripture uses synecdoche to represent the act of faith and repent is the word. Christ says “Repent”. Yes, Simon believed as the scripture says but the question remains the same, is his faith qualified to the saving faith? I bet not, otherwise, Peter’s perception is wrong about what God sees in his heart. As said. The heart is deceitful above all things. Since we are trying to find out his faith you should have given us the reason to believe Simon’s faith is genuine or not. Of course, I believe what the bible says and it is a very easy thing to throw the same question to you. “Are you going to believe the Bible or not?”.
It seems you are assuming that Peter here is rebuking and not evangelizing. Repentance in the New Testament is always connected to salvation. We can study the word or where repentance is used in the New Testament and will lead/ connected to salvation. Rather for the born-again believers need to “confess” their sins before God. (1 John1:9)
Luke 24:47
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
2 Corinthians 7:10
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance
Mark 2:17
When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
You did, but what Peter said to him? I even notice that Philipp too didn’t ever say they aren’t saved. That’s too obvious my friend. Peter’s is full aware that he was in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage of sin.
Now you are now about telling us the saving faith and what it is. Thanks, and you just prove that there is saving faith over just believing into something about Christ.
Okay, I will no longer had to derail the thread over the Bible version. You already prove my assertion.
Your conclusion about Simon’s belief that he was saved has its error as per scripture and your reasoning.
1. Neither the writer Luke and Peter assumed he was saved. Luke wrote and Peter says “Repent”, and that he is still in the bond of iniquity.
2. You did the assumption that he was saved but I failed to see your probing. You are just making it a period.
3. You just have proved to me that there is believing that cannot save perhaps categorized as historical belief and not heart belief. “For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness.” Rom. 10:9. Simon’s heart has been understood by Peter and Luke wrote about it as we are now seen in the scripture.
It seems you are assuming that Peter here is rebuking and not evangelizing. Repentance in the New Testament is always connected to salvation. We can study the word or where repentance is used in the New Testament and will lead/ connected to salvation. Rather for the born-again believers need to “confess” their sins before God. (1 John1:9)
Luke 24:47
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
2 Corinthians 7:10
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance
Mark 2:17
When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
You did, but what Peter said to him? I even notice that Philipp too didn’t ever say they aren’t saved. That’s too obvious my friend. Peter’s is full aware that he was in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage of sin.
Now you are now about telling us the saving faith and what it is. Thanks, and you just prove that there is saving faith over just believing into something about Christ.
Okay, I will no longer had to derail the thread over the Bible version. You already prove my assertion.
Your conclusion about Simon’s belief that he was saved has its error as per scripture and your reasoning.
1. Neither the writer Luke and Peter assumed he was saved. Luke wrote and Peter says “Repent”, and that he is still in the bond of iniquity.
2. You did the assumption that he was saved but I failed to see your probing. You are just making it a period.
3. You just have proved to me that there is believing that cannot save perhaps categorized as historical belief and not heart belief. “For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness.” Rom. 10:9. Simon’s heart has been understood by Peter and Luke wrote about it as we are now seen in the scripture.
God said he put his law in our hearts so that we are never far from it.
There is no excuse for self professing Christians to insist the laws of God no longer exist or apply.
Not even Jesus said that. Rather he reiterated the commands of God and then admonished, if you love me keep my commands.
That pretty much settles it I'd think.
There is no excuse for self professing Christians to insist the laws of God no longer exist or apply.
Not even Jesus said that. Rather he reiterated the commands of God and then admonished, if you love me keep my commands.
That pretty much settles it I'd think.
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The lord did not give us the law to teach us how to live
He gave it to SHOW US HOW WE FAILED to LIVE THE WAY HE REQUIRES. Ie to expose sin.
I am not against the law. I am against those trying to push law as a means of sanctification. IT WAS NOT MADE FOR THAT PURPOSE.
But you can’t hear that. Even thought paul put it there in black and white.
He gave it to SHOW US HOW WE FAILED to LIVE THE WAY HE REQUIRES. Ie to expose sin.
I am not against the law. I am against those trying to push law as a means of sanctification. IT WAS NOT MADE FOR THAT PURPOSE.
But you can’t hear that. Even thought paul put it there in black and white.
E
Jesus told us how to live, He did not tell us to keep the law. Or look to the law.
1st he said he came to fulfill it. He had to because we can’t
then he said the law is contained in two commands. Love the lord your God and love your neighbor.
The purpose of the law is to bring you to your knees, and show you Gods redemptive plan
Once it completes that task. Its job is done. Now your purpose is to seek after the things of the spirit and take Gods love and love others.
1st he said he came to fulfill it. He had to because we can’t
then he said the law is contained in two commands. Love the lord your God and love your neighbor.
The purpose of the law is to bring you to your knees, and show you Gods redemptive plan
Once it completes that task. Its job is done. Now your purpose is to seek after the things of the spirit and take Gods love and love others.
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That's where you get 12 from?
If you go by the words of Jesus it would be 2 commandments. Because as he said, all the ten are wrapped up in the two commands. Love the Lord with all your heart and mind. Love your neighbor as yourself.
That was the culmination of the 10 commands from the start. Jesus just put them into perspective.
If you go by the words of Jesus it would be 2 commandments. Because as he said, all the ten are wrapped up in the two commands. Love the Lord with all your heart and mind. Love your neighbor as yourself.
That was the culmination of the 10 commands from the start. Jesus just put them into perspective.
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I have read through much of this thread and I can see that people have strong opinions on both sides. Saying that I step into this discussion with caution.
From my understanding of scripture God does not drag anyone unto salvation, it is a choice we have to make to accept or reject Christ Jesus. I also find that God will not keep those against their will. If a person chooses to reject God after they have once believed then God will allow them to have their way.
I trust the following text will show why I think this way, you may disagree that is your right.
Heb_6:4-6
It is impossible
for those who have once been enlightened,
who have tasted the heavenly gift,
who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God
and
the powers of the coming age,
6 if they fall away,
to be brought back to repentance,
because
to their loss
they are crucifying the Son of God all over again
and
subjecting him to public disgrace.
These verses are speaking of persons that have believed and then have rejected such faith.
From my understanding of scripture God does not drag anyone unto salvation, it is a choice we have to make to accept or reject Christ Jesus. I also find that God will not keep those against their will. If a person chooses to reject God after they have once believed then God will allow them to have their way.
I trust the following text will show why I think this way, you may disagree that is your right.
Heb_6:4-6
It is impossible
for those who have once been enlightened,
who have tasted the heavenly gift,
who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God
and
the powers of the coming age,
6 if they fall away,
to be brought back to repentance,
because
to their loss
they are crucifying the Son of God all over again
and
subjecting him to public disgrace.
These verses are speaking of persons that have believed and then have rejected such faith.
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And what he means is, Jesus gave his life once and took the sins of the world upon himself.
Jesus also said whomever comes to him, he will never cast out.
The parable of the Prodigal son reminds us, we can walk away but God will never abandon us.
Which is what Paul is rendering as that assurance.
If we think we can lose what Jesus gave us, it would be like saying Jesus would have to be crucified all over again in order to be redeemed again and again. As if once was not eternal saving grace.
Paul said the grace and faith of God are a free irrevocable gift.
Jesus said, no one comes to him but the father calls them.
John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
When God knew his elect before the foundation of the world, he also knows our heart. If we lose faith, we don't lose God. He will never cast us out. And no one, that would mean we ourselves, can take us from his hand.
Why try to say, as happens in forums over and over, that Christians are not truly secure in Jesus.
That's not the good news. That's what the world wants us to believe.
The world doesn't save.
Jesus also said whomever comes to him, he will never cast out.
The parable of the Prodigal son reminds us, we can walk away but God will never abandon us.
Which is what Paul is rendering as that assurance.
If we think we can lose what Jesus gave us, it would be like saying Jesus would have to be crucified all over again in order to be redeemed again and again. As if once was not eternal saving grace.
Paul said the grace and faith of God are a free irrevocable gift.
Jesus said, no one comes to him but the father calls them.
John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
When God knew his elect before the foundation of the world, he also knows our heart. If we lose faith, we don't lose God. He will never cast us out. And no one, that would mean we ourselves, can take us from his hand.
Why try to say, as happens in forums over and over, that Christians are not truly secure in Jesus.
That's not the good news. That's what the world wants us to believe.
The world doesn't save.
I agree God will not cast us out but that is not what the text says is it. Notice "if they fall away" that is a personal choice of the person.
Also as for the prodigal son did you not notice that he left of his own choice.
The text says that for those that the reject salvation then for them to return would be, like you said and thus agree with the text, crucifying the Son of God all over again. God loves us enough to let us make our own choices. If we decide to reject salvation then He will not force us to be saved.
This for me is a sobering text as it shows that we can wander so far from God that we will reject the faith that saved us.
Also as for the prodigal son did you not notice that he left of his own choice.
The text says that for those that the reject salvation then for them to return would be, like you said and thus agree with the text, crucifying the Son of God all over again. God loves us enough to let us make our own choices. If we decide to reject salvation then He will not force us to be saved.
This for me is a sobering text as it shows that we can wander so far from God that we will reject the faith that saved us.
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