Sheol

Thank you for sharing.

Do you believe that Faith is first imputed and then we believe in Christ, or do we believe in Christ and then Faith is imputed? In my mind, I don't see how belief in Christ is possible until the Curse of the Lord has been separated from our Heart. Fundamentally, a Cursed person cannot believe. However, a person who has been separated from the Mind of Satan, the Sinful Nature, or whatever we want to call it, seems to be when genuine belief in Christ is made possible. Consider the passage (and concept) below:

Romans 8:7 NLT - "For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God's laws, and it never will."

However, the below passage indicates that the only way to remove the Veil (the Curse of the Lord), is by believing in Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:14 NLT - "But the people's minds were hardened, and to this day whenever the old covenant is being read, the same veil covers their minds so they cannot understand the truth. And this veil can be removed only by believing in Christ."

How do we believe in Christ if the Curse of the Lord prevents that ability to believe?

Could any member of Israel understand the Truth that Moses was offering them when the Veil covered his face? It seems that the logical answer would be no, otherwise, the Veil would be useless. The Purpose of the Veil is to cause Spiritual Blindness so that the Truth is impossible to understand. Because of the Veil, the Truth of Moses could not be understood, nor did they have the choice to simply understand regardless of the raised Veil. For the Israelite's to understand the Truth of the Lord, the Veil (Curse of the Lord) must be removed as the Veil of Moses was removed.

Do you see my point?

What an amazing discussion.

Nice try...Catholics are not bible believers. I am. I believe every word. Do Catholics believe in a real place called hell? How about the lake of fire? Most Christians on this thread believe in a real hell and lake of fire as the Bible states.

Nice try...Catholics are not bible believers. I am. I believe every word. Do Catholics believe in a real place called hell? How about the lake of fire? Most Christians on this thread believe in a real hell and lake of fire as the Bible states.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Yes, Catholics do believe the Bible and in a real hell.

Funny how you claim to be a Bible believer while denying what it explicitly states, while you promote ideas which are un-Biblical.

God chose death as the consequence/punishment for sin, while you deny that death is punishment.

Thank you. However, I didn't walk away feeling like Gal 2:16 answered or solved anything. (No disrespect to you.)

None of your replies have disproved what I believe, only your private interpretations.

God alone is immortal disproves your claim that man is inherently immortal.

Catholics also promote a lot of heresies, such as some here do.

God chose death as the consequence/punishment for sin, while you deny that death is punishment.

So really, who is not believing the Bible???

I affirm that the wages of sin is death.

Others have adopted and vociferously defend an RCC doctrine.

Yes, the entire context is our bodies. Our bodies are corruptible, mortal. At the resurrection, we will be given incorruptible, immortal bodies. Then we can finally say, O death where is thy sting...

I'm not sure what spin you are trying to put on which subject.
Catholics hold the orthodox belief as do mainline Protestants concerning the eternal destination of the unrepentant.
They are not in error on this subject.

Annihilationism is a fringe or cult view.

Some key takeway points:

1) Now the point that Peter wants you to understand is this, that when Jesus was crucified on the cross His body died and His body went where? To the tomb. But when His body was dead, His spirit was what? Alive. Now the question is, where did He go, this living spirit? Well it tells us in verse 19. It says, "In which” that is in His spirit also “He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison." "In which also" means in that living spirit, apart from His body, which lay in the tomb, the living, eternal Christ went someplace. The verb here refers to a personal going. It's also used down in verse 22. It's translated "having gone." It's the same verb. It means literally to go somewhere else. So He went somewhere else.

2) Where did He go? Well it says He went, very clearly here, and made proclamation. He went and made proclamation. He gave a sermon. He went somewhere to preach. He went and gave a triumphant sermon. So even before His resurrection now, even before His resurrection on Sunday morning, He was moving freely in the spiritual realm, okay? And He went to...to preach. Now the verb here "to preach," or to make a proclamation, is not euaggeliz, to preach the gospel. He didn't go somewhere to preach salvation. It is the verb kruss, which means to make a proclamation or to announce a triumph. It is the word “to herald.”

I'd recommend reading the posts from folks other than myself (in this thread.) These friends have offered up some incredible ideas, if not facts, regarding your request. Because of what these people have written, I'd have to say this is the coolest thread I've ever seen (not because of me, but because of them and their Holy Understanding, Knowlege, and Wisdom).

The destruction of the wicked is explicitly articulated from beginning to end of Scripture, and was taught for many centuries after Jesus Christ walked this world, with eternal conscious torment creeping in via Hellenistic thought and the Catholic Church's endorsement with pope Gregory in the 6th century, after which, close to a thousand years later, the RCC declared the destruction of the wicked heretical.

What spin? Did you not say death is not punishment because the dead do not know they are dead?

And if not that explicitly, something that definitely conveyed that idea?

Christ visited Sheol/Hades for 3 days and 3 nights, and proclaimed His victory to all the spirits in prison (while His body lay in the tomb).

Do you have a scriptural reference for this? Thanks in advance.

'm not really getting involved at the moment. I'm just providing references. I'll do my best to synthesize clearly.
(David speaking) “For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.” (Psalm 16:10)

“David looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ: 'You will not abandon my soul to Hades' (Acts 2:31) (Jesus didn't leave him there...since sin was finally paid for, the OT saints could be gathered from their waiting place (Abraham's bosom. That's the whole purpose of Hades/Sheol, it's the waiting place for judgment. NT saints don't have to wait there because our sins have been judged on the cross of Christ. But the wicked still go there to wait for the great white throne judgment (Rev 20).

“He (Jesus) descended into the lower parts of the earth?” (Ephesians 4:9)

“For Christ also died for sins once for all...in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,” ... "making a public display of them, having triumphed over them” (1 Peter 3:18–19, Colossians 2:15)

However, I think we have to be careful when we attempt to reveal something God himself is not ready to reveal to us.

I disagree with most of your post. I'm not usung the red x because it looks so severe.
I'm really not interested in going over the same ground we did recently in the annihilation thread.

We have different beliefs on this subject & both of us have scriptural reasons for those beliefs.

So what you are really saying is that you do not believe God.