THE WOMEN OF THE CHURCH

How are we to know this? And you mention a writing you did on Deborah the Prophetess as if all of us have read everything you've written. This is the first I've read anything of yours. And the first where I misunderstood the position the original poster was taking. I can't apologize for not understanding I can only apologize for my initial comment--because I thought you were in some sort of 'Christian' cult.

And writing clearly so as to make your point clear is also an art form.

does your heart ever get heavy for all the men who profane the name of God by their actions in church?

the pastors who are adulterous liars...the so called teachers that God never called to teach and have basterdized the Bible, those who control rather than lead...and on and on and on

your op is just another sickening example of what so many men enjoy doing to women...control control control

we each have to answer to God for our behavior....I doubt that God ever gave you this as your next 'mission'

this is just another blatant attack on women disguised as 'godly' concern

Actually it was multiple women Jesus chose to spread the very first message of the gospel or good news that Jesus had indeed risen and is waiting for them in Galilee.

THE WOMEN OF THE CHURCH

For several weeks now, I have been thinking of the situation of the women in the Church. It has been heavy on my heart, and I have given much thought as to how best present it here on Christian Chat.

I am not arguing any particular Church Group/Denominational Teaching as being right or wrong. That is not the purpose of this Article.

The purpose of this Article is to discuss the situation that millions of women in the Church find themselves. There are numerous Chruch Groups/Denominations that teach the writings of the Apostle Paul concerning women. For the purpose of this Article, I am taking the position that their teachings are true and Biblical (my personal thoughts not withstanding).

The most taught writing of the Apostle Paul is found in 1 Timothy, Chapter 2:
12) But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

The Churches do not allow women to be Pastors, or hold Offices that give them authority over the men of the Congregation based on this writing. And, as far as I know, the millions of women who attend the Churches that teach this, are not rising up in protest. I can not say how they feel in their hearts, or what they think in their minds, but I am not aware of any great movement by the women to protest this teaching of their Church.

The Church Leaders hold that the Apostle Paul was speaking for God, and, thus, this teaching is a Commandment from God. And as such, must be obeyed. I fully agree that the Commandments from God must be obeyed, for Jesus Himself taught this on numerous occasions. One such is found in the 14th Chapter of John: 15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.


The problem is, this is not the only teaching concerning women that the Apostle Paul wrote. 1 Timothy contains other teachings:

9) In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10) But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11) Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
The Apostle Paul also stated how a woman would receive salvation:
15) Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

There are othere Epistles where the Apostle spoke of women. The most notable being 1 Corinthians, Chapter 14:
34) Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35) And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

As well, in Titus, Chapter 2 we find:
3) The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

4) That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

5) To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

These are the most know teachings concerning women from the Apostle Paul. Given that it is accepted that the Apostle Paul spoke for God in all he wrote, then all of these teachings must be considered Commandments from God.

And THIS is the situation that millions of women find themselves in!

To be clear, we can show the actual results of the Apostle Paul's teachings:

Women are to keep silence in Church. This means that women are NOT to speak/pray or sing out loud while in the Church Building.

Women are ONLY authorized to teach the young women/girls. However, this teaching can not occur within the Church Building, meaning in a Sunday School Room/Class. For women are forbidden to speak within the Church Building. So, I can only believe that they are to teach the young women at home.

Women are NOT allowed to attend Sunday School Classes, nor are they allowed to own or even read the Holy Bible. The Apostle Paul said "if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home." I can only believe that IF women have a question concerning the Gospel, they are to ask their husbands "at home," and it is the husbands duty to teach his wife the Gospel. In this way, what the women learn from their husbands, they can teach to the young women/girls.

Women are NOT to cut or color or style their hair. Nor are they to wear jewelry or make up. They are to dress in "modest" clothing. The Apostle said:
"9) In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;"

Now, the situation women are faced with is that these writings of the Apostle Paul must be considered Commandments from God, since their Church Leaders have established that all that the Apostle Paul spoke/wrote WERE Commandments from God.

Given this, and given that Jesus Himself commanded that we obey Him, the millions of women who are not obedient to ALL of the Apostles writings find themselves living "daily" in disobedience to the Commandments of God!

I do not know if these women even consider this reality, or, if they do, how they justify not obeying ALL the writings of the Apostle Paul?

I have GRAVE FEAR for these women. My heart hurts for them, and I pray for them. I also do not believe their Church Leaders even recognize the situation THEY have placed their women in! How do the Church Leaders justify enforcing only one of the Apostles writings while ignoring all the rest? Do they realize that they are committing their women to live lives in disobedience to God?

I pray that somehow, some way, the Church Leaders that teach concerning women, and the women themselves begin to find a way to rectify this habitual life of disobedience. I have GRAVE FEAR for these women!

Even though the Apostle said they would be "saved in childbearing," he also stated:
15) Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
To receive their salvation in "childbearing," them MUST live in obedience to Gods Commandments!

I pray that the Church Leaders will sincerely pray and seek to address this dire situation!

Praying for the women of the Church..........

Yes. However, Christ died for the Church before ruling her.

That has bearing as well.

Yes it does. But now, this is actually the heart of Pauline teaching on this subject:

22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be subject unto their own husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word. (Ephesians 5:22-26)

In New Testament times, men were dying for their faith. If the parents/ relatives of a man's wife found out that he was evangelizing her to become a Christian and they were vehemently against the gospel, they could report him to authorities, which could potentially end his life. But the responsibility of a Christian husband was to teach her the word anyway. This is why Pauls follows the words, "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her" with, "that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word."

The reason we cringe at the notion of someone "ruling" over another person is because in this world the Devil's children Lord over and abuse one another. That's the way Satan's kingdom operates because they act the way he acts, and he is a god of hate. But not so in the kingdom of God. This is why Jesus taught as follows:

25 Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. 26 Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. (Matthew 20:25-26)

An example of the way lordship is exercised in God's kingdom was given by Paul when he mentioned how Sarah called Abraham "Lord," and yet it is obvious that those two loved each other because one passage talks about how they were seen "sporting with each other" together, which gave away to others that they were obviously more than just brother and sister. So it is not an evil thing for a godly man to be Lord (i.e. "master") over his wife if she is acknowledging his headship over her, and willing to submit to his leadership in love, and this again is what Paul was trying to emphasize. The Christian husband should be willing to die for his wife if necessary to make sure she gets to Heaven, and she should see that she reverences him for it and seeks to do what he is telling her.

It is about getting her to Heaven through his spiritual leadership, not turning her into his own personal slave to fulfill his carnal desires.

Your point is made. However, disagreeing women asks...why can't I should be responsible to make it by my self?
What do you say to that?

Yes it does. But now, this is actually the heart of Pauline teaching on this subject:

22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be subject unto their own husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word. (Ephesians 5:22-26)

In New Testament times, men were dying for their faith. If the parents/ relatives of a man's wife found out that he was evangelizing her to become a Christian and they were vehemently against the gospel, they could report him to authorities, which could potentially end his life. But the responsibility of a Christian husband was to teach her the word anyway. This is why Pauls follows the words, "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her" with, "that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word."

The reason we cringe at the notion of someone "ruling" over another person is because in this world the Devil's children Lord over and abuse one another. That's the way Satan's kingdom operates because they act the way he acts, and he is a god of hate. But not so in the kingdom of God. This is why Jesus taught as follows:

25 Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. 26 Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. (Matthew 20:25-26)

An example of the way lordship is exercised in God's kingdom was given by Paul when he mentioned how Sarah called Abraham "Lord," and yet it is obvious that those two loved each other because one passage talks about how they were seen "sporting with each other" together, which gave away to others that they were obviously more than just brother and sister. So it is not an evil thing for a godly man to be Lord (i.e. "master") over his wife if she is acknowledging his headship over her, and willing to submit to his leadership in love, and this again is what Paul was trying to emphasize. The Christian husband should be willing to die for his wife if necessary to make sure she gets to Heaven, and she should see that she reverences him for it and seeks to do what he is telling her.

It is about getting her to Heaven through his spiritual leadership, not turning her into his own personal slave to fulfill his carnal desires.

That's all good and valid. I'm not sure why you're bringing it up though; the topic is the restriction on women's roles in the Church.

Read through the first three pages of comments, and it is laughingly clear that not ONE SINGLE PERSON actually read with understanding what I wrote in the OP.

ALL EVERYONE DID was to offer their "knee jerk reaction" to the verses/teachings recorded in the OP, and blaming the messenger because that is the best way to vent their anger. Sadly, they manage to simply misunderstand and completely FAIL to read with understanding what was written.

Not surprised. And, apparently, EVERYONE HERE has forgotten WHO IT IS that has stood lock step in keeping with the Biblical belief that women are allowed ALL Authorities that men are. Apparently, ALL HERE soon forgot my Article on Debrah the Prophetiss who sat in judgement of Israel. Far better to simply trash me without actually understanding what I wrote. READING COMPREHENSION TRULY IS AN ART FORM!

Consider this:

. There are numerous Chruch Groups/Denominations that teach the writings of the Apostle Paul concerning women. For the purpose of this Article, I am taking the position that their teachings are true and Biblical (my personal thoughts not withstanding).

Now, the situation women are faced with is that these writings of the Apostle Paul must be considered Commandments from God,

since their Church Leaders have established that all that the Apostle Paul spoke/wrote WERE Commandments from God.

I have GRAVE FEAR for these women. My heart hurts for them, and I pray for them.

I also do not believe their Church Leaders even recognize the situation THEY have placed their women in!

How do the Church Leaders justify enforcing only one of the Apostles writings while ignoring all the rest? Do they realize that they are commiting their women to live lives in disobedience to God?


So, WHO AM I BLAMING? The women who are caught up in the "teachings of their Church Leaders? OR THE CHURCH LEADERS?"

Apparently EVERYONE HERE HAS FORGOTTEN who it is that continously showed how that ALL THE APOSTLE PAUL WROTE/TAUGHT WERE NOT COMMANDMENTS FROM GOD. How the Apostle Paul taught in TWO DISTINCT ways..........Thus sayeth the Lord (commandments) and It would be better that/I would rather that......(advice given by the Apostle Paul on how to live a life best free of problems)

Six or seven years of defending womens rights within the Church, and ALL ANYONE READS is what I posted ON HOW THEIR CHURCH LEADERS BELIEVE.

My goodness, is it any wonder????????

These women are being placed in a dangerous position by their Church Leaders! WHO ARE THE CHURCH LEADERS?

THEY ARE THE MEN OF THE CHURCH!!!!!!!

goodness, reading comprehension is truly an art form

Let your women keepe silence in the Churches, for it is not permitted vnto them to speake; but they are commanded to bee vnder obedience: as also saith the Law.

I apologise that I too misunderstood.
Though I'm not sure it's a reading comprehension problem.

Look at your post # 126 below. It's only a short post- in answer to someone else's.
If you aren't saying women should not speak in church, I don't think your meaning is clear.

Lol,what is does this supposed to prove?

I apologise that I too misunderstood.
Though I'm not sure it's a reading comprehension problem.

Look at your post # 126 below. It's only a short post- in answer to someone else's.
If you aren't saying women should not speak in church, I don't think your meaning is clear.

OPENING:

For several weeks now, I have been thinking of the situation of the women in the Church. It has been heavy on my heart, and I have given much thought as to how best present it here on Christian Chat.

I am not arguing any particular Church Group/Denominationl Teaching as being right or wrong. That is not the purpose of this Article.

The purpose of this Article is to discuss the situation that millions of women in the Church find themselves. There are numerous Chruch Groups/Denominations that teach the writings of the Apostle Paul concerning women. For the purpose of this Article, I am taking the position that their teachings are true and Biblical (my personal thoughts not withstanding).

CLOSING:

I pray that the Church Leaders will sincerely pray and seek to address this dire situation!

Praying for the women of the Church..........

Of ALL the people here, I am most surprised that you misunderstood.........

I apologise that I too misunderstood.
Though I'm not sure it's a reading comprehension problem.

Look at your post # 126 below. It's only a short post- in answer to someone else's.
If you aren't saying women should not speak in church, I don't think your meaning is clear.

If everyone misunderstood then it is not everyone's failt, it is the OP for not being clear.

We all saw the same thing yet you take exception with me? Fine, Your "Thread post" is your reality. Don't get mad because we did not see your forest because of the trees. I have said things that to came out wrong on past threads and others saw it to mean something else Guess what that was my fault not there or it is the freedom and culture of the person.

To show you in my opinion you were unclear When I posted those 8 words about your thread

"the opening is in contrast to the closing."


why did you not say something back then 150 posts back?

Also if your going to speak in the third person stay in the third person.

Or, it may just be easier for you to blame the OP because you jumped to a conclusion that proved to be a mistaken one. Ample clarity was given. Have restated the "disclaimer" numerous times here...........

To receive their salvation in "childbearing," them MUST live in obedience to Gods Commandments!

I pray that the Church Leaders will sincerely pray and seek to address this dire situation!

Praying for the women of the Church..........