Let us do away with the homosexuals & sodomites

Presidente, you like the word "sophistry", but suppose you be careful about "deceitfulness"!

There is a solid rule of interpretation, when determining the meaning or use of a word and I quote:

"RULE:—To determine the usage of a word, consult its occurrences in literature, and depend most on those nearest the passage in point of context, authorship, date and character of composition." p121
https://icotb.org/resources/PrinciplesofInterpretation.pdf

Following that rule, we can recognize how Moses, in his writing the first 5 books of the Bible, in the context of the law, uses the word to ebah which is Strong's #H8441. I'll quote each use of to ebah until in Deuteronomy where there are too many to quote, but look at it for yourself. The last mention of to ebah I do quote, which is Deut. 32.16, 17. Most uses in Deuteronomy are about ritual uncleanness.

"And they set on for him by himself, and for them by themselves, and for the Egyptians, which did eat with him, by themselves: because the Egyptians might not eat bread with the Hebrews; for that is an abomination(to ebah) unto the Egyptians." (Gen 43:32, KJV)

"That ye shall say, Thy servants' trade hath been about cattle from our youth even until now, both we, and also our fathers: that ye may dwell in the land of Goshen; for every shepherd is an abomination (to ebah) unto the Egyptians." (Gen 46:34, KJV)

"And Moses said, It is not meet so to do; for we shall sacrifice the abomination(to ebah) of the Egyptians to the LORD our God: lo, shall we sacrifice the abomination(to ebah) of the Egyptians before their eyes, and will they not stone us?" (Exod 8:26, KJV)
If violating a religious taboo (assuming the commentators are right about this) is to ebah that does not exclude sex acts from being to ebah outside of religious sex acts. Leviticus 18 shows us that a man having sex with his mother or sister another man or animal are a to ebah. If that means religiously taboo and repulsive or else just disgusting/abhorrent/disgusting, either way these religious sex acts were bad. There was also a death penalty for men having sex with men, both partners in Leviticus 20.

This disproves your case again. It doesn't say not to lie with mankind as with womankind only if it is to ebah. Rather, it declares such a wicked act as to ebah.

Romans 1 talks about men being darkened in their understanding. That is part of what led to men burning in their lusts for one another. Pray that God will open your eyes so that you can see and comprehend. Which is more important to you? Knowing the truth and doing what is right before God or justifying male gay sex in your mind and to others?

Men sleeping with their neighbors wives defiled the land. That is in the list along with the gay sex and the animal sex. Why don't you try to defend sex with animals and sleeping with one's mother and other men's wives while you are at it? These things do not have to be done at an idols temple to be forbidden. They are decreed here to be abominations. If the term carries the notion of 'religously abhorrent' such acts are abhorrent.

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination(to ebah) : they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." (Lev 20:13, KJV)

"The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therein: for it is an abomination(to ebah) to the LORD thy God. Neither shalt thou bring an abomination(to ebah) into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing." (Deut 7:25-26, KJV)

"When the LORD thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land; Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination(to ebah) to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it." (Deut 12:29-32, KJV)

** Notice how this passage is so similar to Leviticus 18 almost like an explanation and parallel thought.

"Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination(to ebah) is wrought among you;" (Deut 13:13-14, KJV)

........................... So many references to "abominations" in Deuteronomy, the last being:

"They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations(to ebah) provoked they him to anger. They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not." (Deut 32:16-17, KJV)

** Yes, you can go forward many centuries and quote out of the poetic book of Proverbs and read: "A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight." (Prov 11:1, KJV) But that does not overrule the use Moses makes of the word in the Law in the Pentateuch.

Jonathan and David in the OT were normal men, valiant warriors. David had several wives and many concubines and Jonathan was married and had sons. There is something about their love that is obvious, but denied and ignored by most.

"And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved(H157 ahab) him as his own soul. And Saul took him that day, and would let him go no more home to his father's house. Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved(H160 ahabah) him as his own soul." (1Sam 18:1-3, KJV)

The first "loved" is the Hebrew ahab and it is very broad in meaning, human to human or even human love to an object. The second "loved" is ahabah and tracing that word, it is more pointed in meaning when used of human love to another human. The first occurrence of the word is the following:

"And Jacob served seven years for Rachel; and they seemed unto him but a few days, for the love he had(H160 ahabah) to her. And Jacob said unto Laban, Give me my wife, for my days are fulfilled, that I may go in unto her." (Gen 29:20-21, KJV)

The next 3 occurrences of this (H160 ahabah) are about the love of Jonathan for David, 1 Sam. 18:3; 20:17; 2 Sam. 1:26. Then this word is used in 2 Sam. 13:15 of the sort of love Amnon had for Tamar which was rape, certainly sexual. The first use for the 5 occurrences of ahabah in human to human love was Jacob's love for Rachel; and the last was the rape of Tamar by Amnon. The 3 other occurrences are of Jonathan and David. Then there is the phrase "the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David", and the Hebrew for "knit" is (H7194 qashar). It is often pointed out that this same word used in the following of the love of father for a son:

"Now therefore when I come to thy servant my father, and the lad be not with us; seeing that his life is bound up(H7194 qashar) in the lad's life;" (Gen 44:30, KJV)

Therefore it is reasoned that the knitting of souls, qashar, is platonic, not in any way sexual. Yet, the REB translates v1 as:

"1–2 That same day, when Saul had finished talking with David, he kept him and would not let him return any more to his father’s house, for he saw that Jonathan had given his heart to David and had grown to love him as himself." (1Sam 18:1, REB)

On what basis did the REB have for translating with such a romantic sounding phrase? The reason can be found in a Hebrew-English Interlinear. The literal translation of this phrase is:

"and soul-of Jonathan she-was-tied in-soul-of David" I put the words in proper English order.
https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/1sa18.pdf

The female pronoun "she" is included to describe the tie of Jonathan's soul to David. The pronoun "she" is missing in Gen. 44:30. It is interesting where the pronouns "she" and "he" are found in various verses in connection with the Hebrew qashar. The pronoun "she" is used in the Zondervan OT Hebrew-English Interlinear also, a 1987 Edition, placed exactly as given in the following:

H7194 qashar is found in 44 verses in the OT. It has "she" in only 3 verses, 2 speaking of females, and the one speaking of Jonathan.
Gn38:28 "midwife"; Josh2:21 "Rahab"; but then we have this one, 1Sa18:1 "Jonathan".

The gender "he" is joined to qashar in 1Kgs15:27 (male); 16:9,16,20 (him); 2Kgs9:14;10:9;15:10,15,25,30(him); Job41:4(him); Amos7:19(he)

Context again shows in the preceding that these are referring to men, males; the pronouns being of the male gender. Moving up to the next verse in consideration:

"I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women." (2Sam 1:26, KJV)

Every standard translation renders this "love of women", nowhere is it translated "love of father", "love of mother", "love of brother", "love of wife" or "love of wives"! If the verse meant love of a wife or wives the words were readily available from Genesis forward. The early Latin translations solved the perceived problem by adding a spurious sentence to the verse and this was followed in the Wycliffe and Douay-Rheims translation thus:

"I grieve for thee, my brother Jonathan: exceeding beautiful, and amiable to me above the love of women. As the mother loveth her only son, so did I love thee." (2Sam 1:26, DRC)

That underlined sentence is not in the original and no translations since have added that fraudulent sentence. The purpose of adding "mother love" to this verse is glaringly obvious and the idea that the verse means wife or wives is as ridiculous as those who insist the "wine" in the Bible is truly "grape juice" not wine. It is claimed by some, Jesus certainly would not turn 120-180 gallons of water into a wine, a beverage containing alcohol. The same evasion as that is used trying to transform "love of women" into love of a wife or wives.

Americans who aren't gay tend to be, or used to at least, tend to be a little averse to men expressing too much feeling for one another as friends. David and Jonathan were very close friends. But that does not mean that one of them put an appendage in the other's oriface or something along those lines. That is the type of wickedness this thread is trying to defend.

Has someone intimated that idea?

My comment on the recent David and Jonathan posts. btw, I think I now know where 'soul tie' comes from, possibly. I hadn't made the connection before, but a lot of references to it seem to have little to do with David and Jonathan.

I am reading both your posts and the other posters posts, and I so far, at least on page 15 of this thread, I am not reading that your “opponent” is stating that he is endorsing “Sodomy”. I am reading your posts too, but it’s like I am reading the same argument.

When Mom is telling me a point of view, I come back with a rebuttal explaining the same thing. She always comes back with, “didn’t I just say that?”. It’s how I heard her and then again, I really didn’t hear at all.

I will go back to the beginning and see if your “opponent” is stating his support for “gay s-x”.

Thank you

I'm not naturally attracted to men...in fact I think women got the raw end of the deal.
Having said that, I have no urge to toss gay people off of buildings, either. I think I'd rather try to understand the situation better than I do now. I don't think gayness is contagious, is it? C'mon, now...they're just people.
I think many gay people don't like Christians because of the way they've been mistreated by us.
I come from a different background and I don't like the way many have treated me, either.
Christ, and Christ alone, is the only reason any of us are not destroyed.

I look at it like this...the world is full of all kinds of people. I deal with people on a one-to-one basis. I try to treat others the way I want to be treated. I don't feel it is my responsibility to tell others how to live their lives. I am not God.
I do not compromise what I believe, nor do I try to push what I believe on others. My job is to get along with others. I've found in life that if I treat others respectfully, they will usually treat me the same. Most people want to live their lives how they see fit and be left alone.
I'm well aware of what the bible says, having started reading it in the 70s. It seems that if I don't come out hating gays, I always hear talk about justify sin. To tell you the truth, the main group of people that I've had trouble with are Christians and their holier-than-thou attitudes.
Before we start on about the sins of the world, I think it would behoove us to take a look at our own.

I look at it like this...the world is full of all kinds of people. I deal with people on a one-to-one basis. I try to treat others the way I want to be treated. I don't feel it is my responsibility to tell others how to live their lives. I am not God.
I do not compromise what I believe, nor do I try to push what I believe on others. My job is to get along with others. I've found in life that if I treat others respectfully, they will usually treat me the same. Most people want to live their lives how they see fit and be left alone.
I'm well aware of what the bible says, having started reading it in the 70s. It seems that if I don't come out hating gays, I always hear talk about justify sin. To tell you the truth, the main group of people that I've had trouble with are Christians and their holier-than-thou attitudes.
Before we start on about the sins of the world, I think it would behoove us to take a look at our own.

I would say that the issue is always to prove our love for God by loving our neighbor as ourselves.
Lord, help us to love those who hate us
Bless those that curse us
Pray for those who mistreat us
Give to those who take from us