Doctrine of Unconditional Election

Back at you

So then, after all, it is Christ who implants faith and it is not through/by man himself?

FreeGrace2 said:
The difference is that I provided verses that actually SAY what I believe and REFUTE what you keep saying.
No you haven't.

Here is the truth. NO ONE "implants faith". Where do your unbiblical words come from?

The word "faith" is a "trust". It is the object of that faith that saves. God created mankind to seek Him (Acts 17:27).

Those who seek will find.

Again, your views are refuted by Titus 2:11. But you haven't addressed that verse to show me it says other than what I believe it says clearly.

You are free to your own opinions, of course. But Titus 2:11 proves that you are wrong.

nope. it says "faith Christ" not "faith in Christ". The verse has to make sense. If Christ wasn't faithful to the Father in accomplishing
His will, there would be nothing for anyone to have faith in. It would be a logical impossibility to be required to already have in possession that which is being sought after - that can't be, making your interpretation an impossibility to achieve.

The word inbirths (or inplants) faith came from studentoftheword, if I remember correctly. And by the way, I agree with him in that

What do you think these verses means?

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

This verse? What you perceive it to say is "not so clearly".

[Tit 2:11 KJV] 11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Salvation wasn't offered to everyone by that verse. That by which grace is possible (Christ) "appeared", but the word "appeared" is not synonymous with the word "offered". It means that Christ (the manifestation of God's grace) had been made visible (appeared) within the Gospel. In other words, it is through God's grace that salvation was made possible, but not that some kind of an offer of grace was being made. Instead, it was informing that which brings grace and salvation had been made visible in human form.

"So you like making your own Doctrine up and whoever listens to you will be big trouble in their end ---"

So by stating that Christ is the Saviour and actually meaning it, brings big trouble to anyone who follows it? Really?
I think that your heart loves and believes in the non-biblical doctrine of works for salvation and rejects any biblical doctrine that argues against works, which can only mean you don't have truly believe in Christ as Saviour.

Here is the verse from the interlinear

Knowing G1492 that G3754 a man G444 is G1344 ➔ not G3756 justified G1344 by G1537 the works G2041 of the law, G3551 but G3362 by G1223 the faith G4102 of Jesus G2424 Christ, G5547 even G2532 we G2249 have believed G4100 in G1519 Jesus G2424 Christ, G5547 that G2443 we might be justified G1344 by G1537 the faith G4102 of Christ, G5547 and G2532 not G3756 by G1537 the works G2041 of the law: G3551 for G1360 by G1537 the works G2041 of the law G3551 shall G1344 ➔ no G3756 G3956 flesh G4561 be justified. G1344

What did I mis-represent? Point it out.

FreeGrace2 said:
Here is the truth. NO ONE "implants faith". Where do your unbiblical words come from?
Where does the word "inbirth" come from? Why do you accept made up words from other posters? Do what the Bereans did; search the Scriptures to see if what the other poster said. Acts 17:11.

The fruit of the Spirit is the result of being filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18) or "walking by means of the Spirit" (Gal 5:16).

It isn't what anyone has BEFORE they have believed in Christ for salvation.

This verse speaks of WHO does the saving. It's NOT by works that we do but by His mercy.

FreeGrace2 said:
Again, your views are refuted by Titus 2:11. But you haven't addressed that verse to show me it says other than what I believe it says clearly.
What do you think "appeared to ALL MEN" means then?? Of course it means offered. Why would salvation "appear" to everyone if it isn't for everyone? Can you actually answer this question?

This couldn't be more in error.

New International Version
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
English Standard Version
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
Berean Study Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone.
Berean Literal Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
New American Standard Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people,
NASB 1995
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
NASB 1977
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
Christian Standard Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
Holman Christian Standard Bible
For the grace of God has appeared with salvation for all people,
American Standard Version
For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For the all saving grace of God has been revealed to all men;
International Standard Version
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people.
Literal Standard Version
For the saving grace of God has appeared to all men,
NET Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people.
New Heart English Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people,

Quite a few translations would disagree with you.

iow, salvation is available to everyone.

But not in your theological theory. In yours, many many people CANNOT have salvation, because Christ didn't die for them.

btw, speaking of "many", Mark 10:45 - For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

A verse used to defend limited atonement. However, the word 'many' is used to mean "the masses" in contrast to NOT very many.

So, please square Mark 10:45 with Matt 7:13,14
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

If "only a few find it" (v.14) why does Mark 10:45 say that Christ gave His life for many?

I say ----it is pointless talking to you ----as you just keep grasping for straws --to show yourself to be right ---while saying everyone else is wrong ---you are showing your pride and arrogance at not accepting what the scripture is really meaning -----which is Faith IN JESUS

I say -------It is on us to teach the truth of Scripture by and through relying on the HOLY SPIRIT ---not our selves -----it is a big responsibility for True Christians to Preach to others ------Truth ----as their eternal home depends on it ------

False Prophets teach not truth and send their Flock to eternal torment and don't care cause they just want to be right ---very sad for them in their end ---


-I agree with these Scriptures below

Proverbs 13:20 Become wise by walking with the wise; hang out with fools and watch your life fall to pieces.

Hebrews 5 ----

Warning Against Falling Away
11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand.

12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!

13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness.

14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

Blessings to ya

just had to emphasize this truth ...

It is the object of that faith that saves.

so, so true

That’s what the Bible says

It was intended for someone else but accidentally included in my reply to you. Ignore it.

I never said few. Where did you find that? My point is it is for only certain specific individuals - those God chose, the number of which will be very large, but is not a blanket offer to everyone. If it was, that would mean that people who are incapable of understanding the Gospel, or do not have access to the Gospel, could never be saved because coming to faith would be dependent upon themselves, and therefore, their salvation would not be realized. On the other hand, with election, God Himself commits to saving those He has chosen with no exceptions or qualification to the promise. How do you explain what will happen to people who do not have access to the Gospel for whatever reason?

Your opinion. I'm done discussing this issue.

I don't understand your point. Few proportionally speaking; very large in terms of real number. See my question regarding
what happens to those who can't believe, stated above

Wait -Isn't not believing in Christ a sin? We are commanded throughout the Bible to believe/faith in Him, aren't we?
So if He paid for all sin, then He also paid for the sin of not believing and wouldn't that sin have been paid too? So, according to you, since Christ paid for everyone's sin, and He died for everyone, then that must mean either everyone must be saved, or that He didn't die for everyone, right? Which is it? Do you see another possibility?

We are not autonomous

There is limited atonement

Excerpt from "What is the unpardonable sin / unforgivable sin?"

FreeGrace2 said:
Where does the word "inbirth" come from? Why do you accept made up words from other posters? Do what the Bereans did; search the Scriptures to see if what the other poster said. Acts 17:11.
I always respond when I see something made up to look like biblical language. So, where did you get that non-biblical word from?

There is no such thing as "inbirth". There is "birth", and "new birth". There is NO "inbirth". Just as there is no "outbirth".

Titus 2:11 refutes your opinion. Rejecting that verse doesn't absolve you of your error.

OK, let's go there. Infants, the mentally handicapped, etc. SINCE Christ did die for everyone, they are covered.

Such people are not accountable for the very reason you bring up. They have NO opportunity to understand, much less accept, the gospel promise. That's why Christ MUST die for everyone.

Otherwise, all such people would end up in the lake of fire.

But I've shown you the clear verses that Jesus died for everyone, so your continued arguing is simply against Scripture.

You know full well that there are NO verses that show that Jesus died ONLY for certain people.

If you did, then you'd have a biblical doctrine. otoh, I have shown you multiple verses that SAY clearly that Jesus died for all.

The vain attempt to argue that "all" doesn't always mean everyone is feckless. Only when the "all" is further defined to SHOW it doesn't mean everyone in history does it not mean just what it says.

Example: a teacher says says to her class, everyone will get to go to recess. It is obvious that she isn't referring to people that lived before her, or anyone OUTSIDE that classroom. So context definitely matters.

In the Bible, none of the "all" verses regarding who Christ died for include anything that justifies the Calvinist argument that "all" just means "all the elect", or "only the elect".

Again, you have zero evidence from Scripture for your opinion or Calvinist doctrine. It doesn't exist in reality.

Wrong on several levels. First, there are NO verses that show election is to salvation. That is just pure speculation. Second, the doctrine is "unconditional" election. If that were referring to salvation, then faith is ELIMINATED as a condition for salvation.

But we all know that faith is THE condition for salvation. Paul's answer to the jailer proves that soundly.

Romans 1-
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Since God HAS revealed Himself to everyone, "people (all of them) are without excuse".

Romans 2-
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

These verses show that God created mankind with a conscience, with which to know right from wrong.

Heb 11:6 - And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

This verse alone shoots down reformed doctrines.

Without ammo, it's always a good idea to bow out.

FreeGrace2 said:
So, please square Mark 10:45 with Matt 7:13,14
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Mark 10:45 says Christ died for the "many". Yet Matt 7 says only a "few" make it. What is obvious, or should be, is that "many" refers to the masses. iow, Christ died for the masses. That means everyone, just as all the "all" verses plainly say.

Did.

FreeGrace2 said:
If Christ hadn't died for someone, then they COULDN'T be saved even by faith. The debt HAS TO BE PAID.
Every sin has been paid by Christ on the cross. What is your point?

Every sin has been paid. However, forgiveness comes from faith in Him, not His death on the cross.

Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Wrong on several levels, again.

First, it isn't "according to me". I have shown you very clear verses. It is according to the Bible.

Second, you keep PRESUMING that His death saves those He died for. Where is such a verse? No where.

Romans 4:25 - He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

This is very clear. His death paid for everyone's sins, BUT, it is His resurrection that brings our justification or salvation.

Which is it? Do you see another possibility?[/QUOTE]
Just explained.

You've got to give up your presumed doctrines, because they are not in the Bible.

Stick with what the Bible actually says.

It's always a huge challenge to discuss anything with someone who has these presumptions and thinks they are truth.

FreeGrace2 said:
There's a whole lot of the Bible that you have clearly shown that you do not accept.

The difference is that I provided verses that actually SAY what I believe and REFUTE what you keep saying.

It means, just as John the baptist (John 1:29) and the Samaritans (Jn 4:42) believed, that Jesus would die for all of humanity, not just some of them. Without the sacrificial death of Christ, NO ONE could be saved. He HAD to pay the sin debt.

If Jesus didn't die for EVERYONE, then Titus 2:11 is a LIE, straight up. Do you believe that?
Prove it. And answer my question about Titus 2:11.

The ONLY way you can prove limited atonement is to quote a verse that specifically notes who Jesus died for.

Titus 2:11 is not a lie, instead your understanding of it is wrong.
If Jesus died for all humanity, then all must be saved because their sin was eliminated and no judgment against them can be levied.
You can't have it both ways-- either sin has been paid, is gone, or not. What those forgiven do or don't do
has no relevance to salvation once their sin is removed. If it does, then it must be that sin still remains. The salvation transaction (so to speak) was entirely between God the Father and Christ, which transaction, Christ successfully satisfied perfectly. Those covered by it, play no part in it, other than for it to be given freely to them with no caveats.
If Christ died for everyone and yet something else in addition to that
is still needed from them, then He died for no one and He cannot be the Savior-- it is a simple proposition
No, I do not believe that He died for everyone but only for those He whom had chosen to salvation from before the foundation of the world. It amazes me that you and others think differently. Read the following verses from Ephesians which clearly informs us of that.

[Eph 1:4-6, 11, 18-19 KJV]
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. ...
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: ...
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what [is] the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,