The relationship between the Remission of Sins, the Blood of Jesus, and receiving the Holy Ghost

I've been thinking about your accusation suggesting I "want to earn salvation" both in the quoted post, again in post #136, and the follow-up questions of post#139.

What struck me this morning is that the accusation and follow-up questions of Post #139 aren't because you think I could teach you something about either baptism or OSAS doctrine... But were rather an attempt to shift focus away from the topic of "WHEN does a person receive the Holy Ghost" (which was the only topic we were debating up to that point) and to shift focus to some other topic because it was becoming evident that you were losing. (badly, I might add).

I didn't think it would be classified as a "Strawman" but then I looked up the definition. I liked this one best:
By exaggerating, misrepresenting, or just completely fabricating someone's argument, it's much easier to present your own position as being reasonable, but this kind of dishonesty serves to undermine honest rational debate.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby

You have just displayed an outstanding example of maturity. Duly noted.

David,
I've got 3 things on my heart to talk to you about. All will be said/asked/mentioned in respect, not argument. One is an outright compliment (this one). One is asking your help in an area that I've realized I'm strangely blind (the next one). And the last one is an "I think you recognize a particular error correctly, but are you able to see where you did it too? And can we go back to that moment and examine something more closely?". Again, all are sincere. None are flattery. Normally I'd address the last one first but I want to make it clear how much respect (not accusation or arrogancy) is involved in the asking. OK... Compliment time.

I REALLY appreciated this quoted posting. And I think it's important to understand why a compliment is given. So I want to share some backstory lest the compliment be construed as flattery or veiled mockery.

From what I see, Curry Blake is getting healing to FUNCTION more than 99% of "Christians" and even 99% of Christians. That counts for a LOT in my book. "For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power." - 1 Corinthians 4:20 KJV Curry Blake exhibits a doctrine of power. (BTW, that happens to be why Everlasting-Grace's doctrine was losing... plenty of word... but no power = not the kingdom of God. My last suggestion before the "strawman" was shedding light on that.) But back to Curry Blake.

So I give credit to Curry Blake as being somewhat of an expert in matters of healings. BUT... if you've read many of my posts you can see that I discourage blindly following ANYBODY. And something wasn't sitting right about Curry's claim that the dead cannot be contributing faith to their own healings "because they are dead".

I thought I knew what it was... but I hadn't been bold enough to PROCLAIM it the way you did. And THAT is why I appreciated your post. You said in bold statements what I'd only been considering internally. And seeing your boldness encouraged me to lay hold on the truth instead of just playing with it (for lack of better wording). I drew courage from your example. Similar to this account:


I might not agree with EVERYTHING you said, but you definitely shared some truth. Thank you.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Because of the "big grin" at the end, I'm not entirely sure how to take this post. Was my posting taken as an honest example of maturity? or was that being said sarcastically?

The reason I ask is because of that "strange blindness" mentioned earlier. I might call it "compliment blindness" in that some people, like myself, SophieT, and one of my bosses) have a hard time discerning whether a thing said to us is truly a compliment or rather is something else (like flattery, mockery or sarcasm) especially in type-written form. I'd give an example from my own past but that would take too long.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Kelby,

I appreciate your thoughts and words on flattery. Flattery is something I used to be guilty of until I was called on the carpet regarding that matter. I used to really, really be over-the-top in my kind words, and then they caught up with me. My “flattery” was getting me in trouble at work and I had at least two men become angry with me regarding my treatment toward their 1) girlfriend, and 2) wife. The man with the girlfriend was so angry he became violent towards me . . . I could have had him arrested. What was more impactful than this young man’s violent outbreak, were his words. He told me that I was “creepy.” And while I didn’t appreciate his brave attitude toward me at the time, I am very thankful today. I am thankful that people are brave enough to say things, even if they are from the point of misunderstanding. I listen to all words of criticism from everyone . . . including those here, who belittle and berate me each day. I am thankful for all of it.

Therefore, I am proud of you (I sense you are much younger than I, hence my “pride”), for it seems that you are on a great path in this Christian life. Keep Asking! Keep Seeking! Keep Knocking! (Note the all-caps – Asking, Seeking, and Knocking are most Holy, Holy Words.)

Kelby, I do not write this with pride, as most will falsely judge my heart (for), but I have felt the Raw, Almighty Power of God to the degree that if I had felt even a little bit more, I could have died. I can assure you that no human flesh can stand before the Raw Presence of God and live. What is said about this in the Old Testament is absolutely correct; it should never be underestimated. When a person takes upon him or herself this incredible Power, they instinctively know things. We can’t help it. We do not become special in any way, nor are we better than anyone else. We just KNOW things that others do not know and cannot know. This Almighty Experience that had been given to me is both a Blessing and a curse. It is a Blessing because to experience the Terror of the Lord, only to be rescued by the Holy Spirit, resulting in a measurable Indwelling of the Holy Spirit . . . there is nothing greater that I could ever hope to experience in this Satanic world. However, my experience, that which produces the Boldness that you have expressed, it is a curse, for as soon as I began to tell my family and friends of this Holy Experience, they all began to hate me. All had abandoned me. There was a period of about 3 years when I had no one to call as I was undergoing the most incredible persecution. I would literally say out loud as I reached for my phone, “Is there really no one for me to call?” Sure enough, I would search my phone and there was no one for me to call. I was completely alone in this world. Worse than being jailed or imprisoned, I was in the free world, yet 100% alone. It was the most unbelievable feeling. Fortunately, four of my past relationships are in the process of being restored, and wow, does it feel good!

So, my Experience is a curse, but I cannot deny my boldness. To repress it would be to literally repress our Powerful, Almighty God . . . and I simply cannot, nor am I able, to be a part of any of that.

I want to share with you this: My experience was so profound, I found it to be of the utmost importance to “get to know” our amazing Bible. During my incredible time of suffering and being “imprisoned’ within the free world, God afforded me the opportunity to study His Holy Word up to 18 hours per day. Most people cannot do that, and so while I was ever so isolated, little did I know that this God-produced isolation was allowing me to study His Word in a most unique way. Using my former Microsoft background, I began collecting, organizing, and cataloging His Word into an Excel Spreadsheet. This way, I could organize His Word by categories, sub-categories, sub-sub-categories. Even then I found even deeper ways to further sub-categorize His Holy Word. I don’t believe that the Lord had me do these things because I am smart, but because I am not the smartest. Without putting His Word into a sortable and filterable Spreadsheet, I simply wouldn’t be able to remember much. I created one column specifically for my own commentary, so that as I would need to find that passage later on in a simple search, by using my own words, I would know exactly how to find virtually any passage that I had logged and recorded. Incredibly, I realized that I was developing my own written commentary on the entire Bible.

I do not write one word of this message to impress you, for I am an unimpressive person. Virtually no one finds credulity within me, within this world. I am despised. However, I write this message to encourage you to do the same thing, if you are able. I sense that God has Cleansed and Purified your Heart . . . you have a different “spirit” within you. You are gentle, kind, and seem to be Empathic. If you are able, give as much of your time to studying . . . and I don’t mean reading commentary. Get yourself a timeline, chronological order for which to read the entire Bible, and learn the story of God’s Word (if you don’t know it already). Do not study commentary, but do your best to learn only of God’s written word . . . not man’s interpretation of it. Read from as many different translations as you are able . . . they all possess the exact same core message. Don’t worry about the little things that virtually everyone here likes to ramble on and on and on about, but figure out the True Mysterious Plan of God.

The below three passage sets, if read before each daily reading, will slowly begin to put the entire Word of God into proper and full perspective:

Ephesians 3:1-13

Ephesians 2:10-16

Colossians 2:9-15

Read them in that order, and then begin your daily studies. Even though Paul unpacks the Mysterious Plan of God for us, he still keeps it hidden for the True Saints. I am only further unpacking the things that he said, but to the next, more simplistic level. I believe in you. I believe that you will come to know what that full Mysterious Plan of God actually is.

May the Lord grant you the most incredible of Blessings!

No, Kelby. You made yourself an example for me to follow. I Love the way and manner in which you conduct yourself, here. Again, you are a wonderful example for me to follow. I admire you.

@2ndTimothyGroup
Thanks for the replies. I'll have to post that 3rd thing later. I've run out of time for the moment.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

I just stated what I saw.

Someone who is trying to gain salvation by performing a work of righteousness.

As for when someone received the spirit. If you have not recieved the spirit your not saved. We have discussed that in the early church things happened differently. This new covenant was trying to go into people who were deep into the old covenant, It was also trying to go the the gentiles and saying it was a Jewish religion. (because it was) so just like when Jesus used signs and wonders. the church in the beginning used signs and wonders to prove their gospel was from God. so it does not suppose me any.

Paul said after we hear the word of truth we are sealed with the spirit who is our pledge. without the seal of the spirit. there is no salvation.

The bible also says that without our sins being washed in the blood. there is no forgiveness. sp how can one be saved wihtout the work of the spirit? they can't

As for a straw man. I am sorry you feel that way. I am not trying to be rude. although I did get testy, forgive me.

EG,
All is forgiven... and I ask likewise. It's easy to get testy or defensive when discussing an important topic with someone we've just met (because we are naturally on guard). And we definitely are discussing an important topic(s). The way I've learned to get past that defensiveness is to simply let my guard down and speak as a friend. So as speaking to a friend, I'll share something:




That was a LOT to put into three sentences. So before I attempt to explain what I mean, let me stop there and ask "What are your first thoughts are as you read each sentence?". Thanks

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

@Pilgrimshope ,

I think you did a great job of explaining the relationship between belief and action (as part of belief, not in replacement of it) and how being baptized (the action we take as part of that promise) is done in belief that God is able to fulfill His part of that promise (the remission of sins).

Also, I wonder if there were some in Noah's day who claimed Noah was trying to "earn his salvation by works" when they saw Noah building the ark by faith.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

In my view. people who are trying to be saved, ot get saved by good works no matter what works they are saying are required. are teaching we are justified, redeemed, rescued from the penalty of sin etc etc by works. As paul said, if it is of grace it is no longer works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. So in my perspective of what salvation is and how it is obtained or received. It is what I see. that is not a strawman. it is just what I see. Again. forgive me if you took it that way.


hope my response helps

The third thing I wanted to mention (for further examination) is this quoted post #169 which answered my post #167 along a string that was exclusively discussing the purpose and stated effect of WATER baptism...but you suddenly switched topic to SPIRIT experience. There was no following attack but it was just as sudden of a switch as what Everlasting-Grace did from the topic of "WHEN someone receives the Holy Ghost (to WATER and OSAS.) Have you considered why you felt the need to switch away from the topic of the results of water baptism at that particular point?

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Thanks for the reply. The aspect of friendliness shows through in your post. I'll try to reply on the topics soon but wanted to thank you for the post without delay.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Because, in post #164 I was establishing the point that water is simply water, asserting that what Purifies is something other than water. However, you seemed bent on disregarding what I wrote. Therefore, I didn't "suddenly switch topic to SPIRIT experience."

And so the psychological merry-go-round just continues to swirl . . . and swirl . . . and swirl . . . and swirl.

Ah. That makes sense. From my perspective it was a sudden switch but from yours it was "Hey Kelby, try to keep up"?

I don't know. I guess I just find all of this back and forth as a bit of a nightmare. I get burnt out on it when simple dialog is made difficult. These forums make it seem as though christians need a four-year collegiate degree to communicate.

I think that when someone is doing what God said many many others are going to scoff many different ways .I’m sure they were making fun of Noah , I’m sure there were some claiming Noah was self righteous ect that’s how it is in this world

“And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The world is going to always try any means necassary to get a person to believe they don’t need to actually obey what God said will save them.

Even if thier argument becomes “ your trying to earn salvstion by your own works “

reality is the person heard Jesus say what they need to do to save them d they believe it the reaction of belief is to act in that belief

you said it very well there better than I can I have a hard time simplifying things I’m trying to say

I like how you put it there “ we believe and act based on our trust that he will do exactly what he promised “ so the important part is to hear the truth and believe it’s true the actions are always going to flow from what the in our hearts

baptism is only important and only applies because God said it does.

now one thing I do want to say is Jesus never said “ if you believe the gospel , but you don’t get baptized , your lost “

he said “ anyone who believes the gospel and is baptized shall be saved “


To me that’s not the same as saying God will condemn us on a technicality but some people only don’t know what baptism is for ot the promise it provides because no one had ever explained it or shown them the scriptures mankind it so clear

God doesn’t condemn us for what we don’t understand but we condemn our own selves when we hear his word and reject its truth and authority over us.

we’re all on my own opinion a work in progress no matter how long we’ve been in Christ some folks know a lot of what he said others know little what matters is we walk by the knowledge we do have

God bless kelby , it’s definitely not that we earn anything it’s just that we believe and so we act in that belief and have that promise. There’s always a promise with his instructions belief is enough to save if it is in the right place

I would like to point out something that sheds additional light on what Jesus actually said in Mark 16:16. Jesus said he who believes and is baptized shall be saved. Water baptism is actually part of the gospel message that people are required to believe. (Acts 2:30-41) A person who believes the entire gospel message will submit to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. And, as Jesus said those who believe and obey will be saved. Those who do not believe are damned.

yeah I agree it’s an important part of the gospel and applies as it says it does we do it for remission of sins because we believe what is said about it

what I’m saying is ot of folks don’t know anything about it and when you know is when you become accountable we aren’t all going to be judged by what the other people know but what we ourselves know

“And that servant, which knew his Lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.

For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:47-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if you don’t know something God isn’t going to hold you to account

“Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭23:34‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God knows what you know and that’s your own standard . Some folks are raised up believing but they are taught erroneous doctrine like “ water baptism isn’t necassary “

if you have a child d you haven’t explained the rule to the child it is not just to punish them for violating the rule is what I’m saying

water baptism is applicable and needed for remission of sins , but in Christ ignorance if it’s actually something they down understand is an excuse . We can’t lie to God mince we hear about baptism and believe of course we’re going to go have our sins remitted with joy we’ll jump onto the river

but if we have been taught it’s not for us it’s not the same as rebellion itself coming from lack of knowledge and God will work all that out it’s not for you or I to judge others but we need to walk by the truth we have been given

I myself was baptized because I believed what the gospel declares about baptism in his name d what I received from it was Gods pledge from his own promise that I had now done what he said will remit my sin . It’s an act of faith but if I hadn’t known what it was for I probably wouldn’t have made it a point to do me wouldn’t have had the pledge of my sins being remitted

if we do what God said we can rest in assurance that he will keep his end of the promise baptism shouldn’t even be a question but the truth is many people don’t have a clue what baptism is for or that he promises to remit sin based on our act of faith regarding baptism

it’s only when I know something and refuse to do it that I become guilty

“Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.”
‭‭James‬ ‭4:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

doctrine matters because believers trust and accept when thier pastor gets up to speak they take it as Gods word but often the eh aren’t being taught the truth about many things such as baptism

it’s best to just share what’s there and let God do the convicting

Hi @Pilgrimshope ,
I only quoted those three sections because they are together in the text, and they summarize what I was thinking.

1. As for the ability to summarize deep things in a few straightforward sentences...: Please understand that particular ability does not come naturally. There's a lot of prayer that happens before these posts are written, because I used to be overly wordy and imprecise. "To be concise in Truth" is something I sincerely and earnestly prayed. Now I more regularly am able to post accordingly. But also don't think that I just sit down and type out exactly what you see.
Sometimes I spend 1-3 hours writing a post, trying to get what's in my heart out onto the screen...and (as was the case with the original posting of this thread) once I've got it down to a page (or two) God will basically show me what the basic point is and then I need to scrap the whole thing for the few sentences he gave me. That's EXACTLY what happened with Post #1 of this thread. It takes a bit of humbling one's self to scrap 2-3 hours of work and write the final version in about 5 minutes. But as you can tell, it's actually worth it.
2. As for the statement you liked. It was indeed just a summary of what you were already saying quite well.
3. As for your statement "Baptism is only important and only applies because God said it does." That is a profound statement. Of a truth, it is NOT MAN that said water baptism is a "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins". It was GOD who caused that to be stated... directly... in his word,... and at the mouth of two or three witnesses (Mark 1:4, Luke 3:3, Acts 2:38) that every word may be established. And yet man has the audacity to call that "a gospel of works".


Love in Jesus,
Kelby