TONGUES false teaching.
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It's from an unbelievers point of view, no it's not the truth. And no, your youtube vids and Dr Brown aren't proof. smh[/QUOTE]
A historical record is not a point of view, unless you don't believe the historical record, then that would be your opinion. But in regard to facts, here is one link that proves part of that historical summary I referred to:
https://www.themessedupchurch.com/blog/parhams-folly-part-2-parhams-embarrassed-missionaries
The fact is, modern Pentecostal tongues have not been real languages from the beginning. If anyone can prove that even some small part of it is real language, let them do so.
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In fact, I spent about a 1/2 hour trying to find it. I reread about a twenty pages back and couldn't find it. I searched on "pastor" and "large church" and couldn't find it. How am I to take this if you don't find it and give the link, except to conclude that you didn't say it? How hard is it to say "yes" or "no"? Are you worried that your answer has changed in the past week? (yes, this is a sarcastic statement, because you apparently are evading the question for some reason.)
Do you claim that your tongues is the same kind they received in Acts 2? (yes/no)
Do you claim that your tongues is the same kind they received in Acts 2? (yes/no)
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How does this answer my question? I'm asking about your tongues, not someone else's. It still appears you are evading the question.
Here is more info on the root beginnings of modern tongues:
Mary Campbell (1830, the Irvington movement) claimed to be speaking the language of the Pelew Islanders. Mary Campbell’s written-tongue was later submitted to a George Staunton and Samuel Lee, who concluded that it was not any real language at all. Soon thereafter, they began to regard their tongues as heavenly languages.... Near the end of her life, Mary Campbell recanted what she had presented herself as, which was, for all intents and purposes, the original push which got the Irvington movement started.(Benjamin Warfield; Counterfeit Miracles; The Banner of Truth Trust, h1972, pp.146-296)
So, the question again is: Do you believe YOUR tongues are the same kind as what the apostles received in Acts 2?
Here is more info on the root beginnings of modern tongues:
Mary Campbell (1830, the Irvington movement) claimed to be speaking the language of the Pelew Islanders. Mary Campbell’s written-tongue was later submitted to a George Staunton and Samuel Lee, who concluded that it was not any real language at all. Soon thereafter, they began to regard their tongues as heavenly languages.... Near the end of her life, Mary Campbell recanted what she had presented herself as, which was, for all intents and purposes, the original push which got the Irvington movement started.(Benjamin Warfield; Counterfeit Miracles; The Banner of Truth Trust, h1972, pp.146-296)
So, the question again is: Do you believe YOUR tongues are the same kind as what the apostles received in Acts 2?
Just reread the OP, since the divine prayer language is given by God and is between the speaker and God, if I can't understand it, it is because it is none of my business what that person is being given to say by the Creator to and for the Creator.
Sounds kind of creepy to want to know that.
Sounds kind of creepy to want to know that.
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With all due respect, when it comes to the study of Biblical 'tongues', whether one is born again or not is completely irrelevant. The modern phenomenon is what it is.
There are many things which must be taken on faith; they can neither be proved nor disproved. “Tongues” however, is not one of these things. They are something very tangible and concrete. Tongues can be, and have been, studied and analyzed as a phenomenon for decades (i.e. the advent of modern linguistics), with all studies yielding the same conclusion.
Literally thousands of examples of tongues-speech have been studied and not one has ever been found to be a real, rational language, living or long dead. Modern tongues-speech is non-cognitive non-language utterance, and is characterized as I detailed in one of my original posts/comments. There just isn’t anything a tongue speaker is producing that cannot be explained in relatively simple linguistic terms.
That said, as I mentioned in my original post, I am, not doubting or questioning the 'tongues experience'; glossolalia as the spiritual tool that it is, can be very powerful and, for many people, the experience is profound.
As one commenter put it, “Speaking in tongues distracts the ego/analytical/conscious mind while leaving the subconscious (the heart) wide open to import the divine." Both the spiritual and physical benefits of using this tool are also well documented.
Again though, it is important to note that this same statement can be made for virtually any other culture that practices glossolalia. Religious and cultural differences aside, the glossolalia an Evenki Shaman in Siberia, a vodoun priestess in Togo and a Christian tongues-speaker in Alabama are producing are in no way different from each other. They’re all producing their glossolalia in the exact same way; they just have different explanations and beliefs as to why they’re doing it, and where it comes from.
There are many things which must be taken on faith; they can neither be proved nor disproved. “Tongues” however, is not one of these things. They are something very tangible and concrete. Tongues can be, and have been, studied and analyzed as a phenomenon for decades (i.e. the advent of modern linguistics), with all studies yielding the same conclusion.
Literally thousands of examples of tongues-speech have been studied and not one has ever been found to be a real, rational language, living or long dead. Modern tongues-speech is non-cognitive non-language utterance, and is characterized as I detailed in one of my original posts/comments. There just isn’t anything a tongue speaker is producing that cannot be explained in relatively simple linguistic terms.
That said, as I mentioned in my original post, I am, not doubting or questioning the 'tongues experience'; glossolalia as the spiritual tool that it is, can be very powerful and, for many people, the experience is profound.
As one commenter put it, “Speaking in tongues distracts the ego/analytical/conscious mind while leaving the subconscious (the heart) wide open to import the divine." Both the spiritual and physical benefits of using this tool are also well documented.
Again though, it is important to note that this same statement can be made for virtually any other culture that practices glossolalia. Religious and cultural differences aside, the glossolalia an Evenki Shaman in Siberia, a vodoun priestess in Togo and a Christian tongues-speaker in Alabama are producing are in no way different from each other. They’re all producing their glossolalia in the exact same way; they just have different explanations and beliefs as to why they’re doing it, and where it comes from.
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K
It is not a "phenomenon". Are there people that misuse or misunderstand tongues, yes there is. But I have missionary friends, I have traveled in hundreds of churches some that were not Pentecostal, where people have spoken in tongues. I know what I have seen and experienced. To say every single person that has spoken in tongues outside the Bible is a fake is a pretty broad brush to tar over 10 million people with. All that being said, have you made your decision yet? Are you still unsure or have you moved one way or the other? Because that ought to be your biggest concern in life right now, not tongues.
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Phenomenon in the sense of an observable fact/situation; not in the sense of a ‘fad’.
Again, glossolalia itself is a real thing; it’s not “fake”; nor is the experience – it is something that can be explained in rather simple linguistic terms; however, not one person ‘speaking tongues’ (in the Pentecostal/Charismatic sense) is producing ‘language’. So, no, what 10 million people are producing is not ‘fake’, per se, but neither is it language of any sort.
Again, glossolalia itself is a real thing; it’s not “fake”; nor is the experience – it is something that can be explained in rather simple linguistic terms; however, not one person ‘speaking tongues’ (in the Pentecostal/Charismatic sense) is producing ‘language’. So, no, what 10 million people are producing is not ‘fake’, per se, but neither is it language of any sort.
