TONGUES false teaching.

[Heaven_Bound]

Another point, Paul, said he spoke in Tongues all the time and even bragged about it and said he wished others would be doing the same thing.

Now, Paul did a lot of traveling, he did a lot of Church set up, he did a lot of Missionary Work, and he spent a lot of time in jail. For Paul to be Speaking in Tongues like that, there would be no interpreter, and he would be doing it praying like we continually pray to God all day long. So it would appear, if we were around Paul and his continual Speaking in Tongues, some would think he was Speaking GIBBERISH.

Is Paul's Gibberish similar to the Gibberish some have pointed out in certain Churches?
If Paul's Gibberish is Biblical, does that mean the Gibberish witnessed today is Biblical.
The similarities are too weird to be accidental.

 

[CS1]

TDidymas, I experienced the same thing in an AoG church: Just open your mouth and start uttering things; it takes practice, they say. Nothing happening? Must be something wrong with you; lack of faith, etc.

It's all religious hocus-pocus. I know it, you know it, a lot of other people know it. Trying to talk someone out of their signs and wonders is like getting a junkie to give up their junk.

But good luck. I applaud your determination to defend the truth.

you are untruthful.

 

[TDidymas]

Another point, Paul, said he spoke in Tongues all the time and even bragged about it and said he wished others would be doing the same thing.

Now, Paul did a lot of traveling, he did a lot of Church set up, he did a lot of Missionary Work, and he spent a lot of time in jail. For Paul to be Speaking in Tongues like that, there would be no interpreter, and he would be doing it praying like we continually pray to God all day long. So it would appear, if we were around Paul and his continual Speaking in Tongues, some would think he was Speaking GIBBERISH.

Is Paul's Gibberish similar to the Gibberish some have pointed out in certain Churches?
If Paul's Gibberish is Biblical, does that mean the Gibberish witnessed today is Biblical.
The similarities are too weird to be accidental.

Yes, it's weird, and similar looking at it only on the surface. But on closer examination, the gibberish tongues is done in many pagan religions. When you compare Kundalini tongues with Charismatic tongues side by side, it's pretty much the same. There's plenty of youtube videos that can be examined. It's been proven that anyone can do it if they try hard enough. Even with the spontaneity and fluency, so that doesn't prove miraculous. It's a human ability, howbeit weird. But it's a pseudo-language, because it doesn't have language structure, so it can't convey meaning.

But Biblical tongues was miraculous, as is shown by Acts 2. And when we realize that the Acts 2 description is key to understanding the other mentions of tongues, we can see that the tongues in the NT is actual languages, which convey meaning. It's called historical precedent. When tongues was spoken later in Acts, the apostles said it was the same thing they got in Acts 2. So it makes sense that Paul is talking about the same thing in 1 Cor.

Incidentally, Paul said he spoke in tongues more than they did. He didn't say "all the time." He wasn't bragging, and he wasn't praying all day long. When he said "pray without ceasing," it's the same meaning as "always pray, and don't quit." It means persevere in prayer. It doesn't mean pray all day.

 

[kaylagrl]

This response proves what I've been saying all along. It shows you have a vested interest in keeping people in the dark about it. The hostility in your language proves all the more what I have said. If I'm so 'tiresome' as you say, then why do you keep responding? Your judgment of me, that I wouldn't believe even if shown proof, is the prejudice I've been talking about. The simple truth is that you are showing yourself to be closed minded concerning this issue, so you're part of the problem, not the solution.

Bud everyone has listened to you go on and on and on. Everyone has a "vested interest" everyone is against you. We're all just trying to zest ya. We've heard it over and over and over. There are tons of threads on this. Everyone else is wrong in their attitude but you. Give us a break why don't ya?

It just shows me that you care only for yourself and your feelings

Really?! You wanna stop flappin' those gums long enough to heard testimony of someone who traveled in ministry for 20 yrs?! No, because it's all about you. Keyboard warriors, love to "hear" themselves "speak". Tiresome.

and don't give a whit about millions of people who need solid evidence to believe modern tongues is authentic.

Generalization, no facts to back up that claim. Over 10 million, well over, speak in tongues in this country alone. More around the world. You don't want evidence, you want to discredit Pentecostals. Apparently some people aren't bright enough to know they aren't the only ones who speak in tongues.

The implication of this whole argument, about your commitment to deride my request, is that you, along with "10 million Pentecostals" have a vested interest in keeping people in the dark about what modern tongues really is.

Utter baloney.

What could this mean, other than you all secretly suspect in your hearts that modern tongues might not be authentic,

More baloney.

and that you just don't want to know?

I know what the Word says. A keyboard warrior isn't about to change my mind, not - one- scintilla. You can take that to the bank bro.

 

[kaylagrl]

TDidymas, I experienced the same thing in an AoG church: Just open your mouth and start uttering things; it takes practice, they say. Nothing happening? Must be something wrong with you; lack of faith, etc.

It's all religious hocus-pocus. I know it, you know it, a lot of other people know it. Trying to talk someone out of their signs and wonders is like getting a junkie to give up their junk.

But good luck. I applaud your determination to defend the truth.

AofG does not believe or teach that. Either you're lying or the pastor didn't know what was going on. Once again, lifelong member, traveled for 20 yrs., have pastors that are family in the AofG. Because if the pastor allows that to go on he will lose his licence. Period.

 

[kaylagrl]

You're the one who called me a boogeyman, I'm just saying look in the mirror.

Nope, I said you see everyone as a bogyman.

You are abjectly wrong about this. Even Jesus' enemies acknowledged the miraculous nature of what He did.

Dramatic wording doesn't make you right bro. Peter sank, why? Jesus constantly chided his disciples for their unbelief. His own hometown didn't believe Him. When He rose from the dead they didn't believe it. As usual you're extremely dogmatic and totally wrong.

The question is what exactly is the abuse. I'm saying that speaking a pseudo-language and calling it tongues as if it's the same thing the apostles did in Acts 2 is the abuse. Why can't you understand what I'm saying?

Already answered, no facts and generalizations.

I never said it didn't exist, so this is yet another misrepresentation of what I say. This is your P/C bias talking. It is typical of P/Cs, including you, to misrepresent what is being said. This is the basic error of P/Cs and why I have very little respect for what they say on this issue. Respect has to be earned, and P/C exaggeration and misrepresentation doesn't earn it.

Great, and I have even less respect for you and your baloney. At least we can agree on something.

If this is your stand, then nothing will be resolved, and you will continue to converse with people in forums like this and the disunity will continue. You're part of the problem, not the solution. If you wanted to do something about the solution, you wouldn't be shifting the blame for someone's disbelief on other people. Look in the mirror. You're not helping.

It is my stand, I know my testimony along with the testimony of others. I have missionary friends and have heard their testimonies. I have traveled and been in hundreds of Pentecostal churches full of wonderful men and women of God. I have heard many of their testimonies. So no, I don't need to prove zip to you dude. You wanna discredit the Holy Spirit, have at it. You wanna discredit the power of God, have at it. You wanna call all Pentecostals fakes and not worthy of your respect, have at it. You think entirely too much of yourself.

Like I said, testimonies are unreliable these days.

Yeah? Well a church full of a thousand people is pretty reliable. But to someone with a chip on their shoulder trying to discredit brothers and sisters in Christ, no proof is enough proof. Your best bet is to block me, because I will keep speaking against your baloney. [/QUOTE]

 

[Gideon300]

Are these real tongues or fake? You decide.

I hear you, brother. I'm inclined to believe these testimonies, especially the ones about healing. I just want to say that I'm somewhat biased against tongues because of my negative experience, which is difficult to overcome. I've seen lots of counterfeit miracles, counterfeit tongues, and such. I'd say all of my 25 years experience in the Charismatic movement was mostly that, and there isn't one tongues event (of dozens, perhaps more than I can count) that I would consider authentic, looking back on it. So I hope you can understand my position.

But just because some cessationists are "bloody minded" is not an excuse to at least try to convert some of them with some real evidence. If real evidence is seen, then don't you think that many (of the millions of cessationists) may change their minds? Where is the concern for the many who are on the fence and don't know what to believe because they don't have enough evidence? Do you think what I propose may be a good apologetic for continuationism?

I can understand your position. Someone posted Rodney Howard Brown babbling in supposed tongues. I rarely get personal, but he and Copeland launched the abomination known as the Toronto Blessing. It's straight from the pit of hell.

I was not persuaded intellectually, even though I am inclined to be an intellectual. I met people who had an indescribable (then) "something" that I lacked. "Spiritual things are spiritually discerned". (1 Corinthians 2:14). So I began to ask the Lord for the gift. Even then, I had a blockage. The Lord revealed the cause and I was set free.

Something to keep in mind: Only 4% of people who go to church are born again. That included "spirit-filled" churches. A good friend of mine spoke in "tongues" before she was born again. It's a common technique to get people to say a few words that are not their native language to get them to speak in tongues. I believe that to be entirely false and unbiblical. I had no such prompting. Neither was that the case on the day of Pentecost.

AofG does not believe or teach that. Either you're lying or the pastor didn't know what was going on. Once again, lifelong member, traveled for 20 yrs., have pastors that are family in the AofG. Because if the pastor allows that to go on he will lose his licence. Period.

That's fine if the pastor has enough discernment. In Australia, there is a great lack. The Toronto deception took root in no time, in spite of there being no biblical basis for it whatsoever.

It's a tragedy. I had AOG people tell me that we don't need Jesus because we have the Holy Spirit. Where did they hear that? At a youth conference run by the AOG. I hope it's different in the US, but what I heard about Pensecola, the antics of Rodney Howard-Brown and Kenneth Copeland do not fill me with confidence.

Who in US Pentecostal circles has denounced the TB? I'd like to know because I don't follow the church in the USA closely. I know of one Pentecostal (not AOG) pastor in Australia who rejected the TB. I know a number of charismatic churches that rejected the TB.

When denomination wholly embraces a deception, I have to wonder about just how good their discernment is. As an aside, AOG is now ACC in Australia.

 

[Kavik]

Incidentally, Paul said he spoke in tongues more than they did. He didn't say "all the time." He wasn't bragging, and he wasn't praying all day long. When he said "pray without ceasing," it's the same meaning as "always pray, and don't quit." It means persevere in prayer. It doesn't mean pray all day.

Yes - I don't believe he was bragging either - Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles – it stands to reason he would use his knowledge of foreign languages more than the average person to spread the Gospel, and thanked God for giving him the ability to do so. A frequent use of foreign languages was sort of part of his “job description”. That said, all he really needed was Aramaic, Greek, and Latin to reach the known world of the Mediterranean Basin.

It also stands to reason that he wished others were able to do the same and perhaps in languages he did not know – would make his job a lot easier and the message could be better spread to all corners of the known world. Paul is not speaking about, nor is he advocating here for, modern tongues-speech.

 

[kaylagrl]

That's fine if the pastor has enough discernment. In Australia, there is a great lack. The Toronto deception took root in no time, in spite of there being no biblical basis for it whatsoever.

I believe TB was from Vineyard? Yes, I just looked it up. So they are independent Pentecostals, not AofG.

It's a tragedy. I had AOG people tell me that we don't need Jesus because we have the Holy Spirit. Where did they hear that? At a youth conference run by the AOG. I hope it's different in the US, but what I heard about Pensecola, the antics of Rodney Howard-Brown and Kenneth Copeland do not fill me with confidence.

Kenneth Copeland is independent too, not part of AofG, same with Brown.

Who in US Pentecostal circles has denounced the TB? I'd like to know because I don't follow the church in the USA closely. I know of one Pentecostal (not AOG) pastor in Australia who rejected the TB. I know a number of charismatic churches that rejected the TB.

In Canada AofG is PAOC and they rejected the Toronto Blessing once it got going and people were coming back with what was happening. Caused a split in a good many churches. It's satans job to cause division, and he does it well.

When denomination wholly embraces a deception, I have to wonder about just how good their discernment is. As an aside, AOG is now ACC in Australia.

Yes. It's true. This nonsense came to my home church. It was the people who had the discernment and got rid of the pastor. We had a pastor take over our church who I had grown up with. Loved him like a brother. But he and his wife went to the city for several yrs. and got into this nonsense. He was warned by the district when he took our church not to get into nonsense. He did not obey.

People began seeking out our little church that was meeting in a fire hall. The next thing they were falling over themselves with Holy laughter, so called. They were line dancing to the worship songs. They would come to the front of the church and put on a show. At first our people were stunned. Finally they took our pastor to task and he refused to listen and said he would not "steady the ark". So we did it for him and with the help of the district tossed him out. Very painful for our people, they hated to do it but he gave them no choice. We had a little old retired pastor we all knew and loved take the church to help with the healing. One evening a man who came with that crowd asked if the pastor had a "word" for him. The our little retired pastor looked at him and said " are you saved", the man said "no", our pastor said "then my word for you is repent and be saved". And all that crowd disappeared once we tossed the pastor out. I don't live there now, so I don't know how things are going for the PAOC. I know that little group moved into a church and have had no issues since.

 

[JTB]

I believe TB was from Vineyard? Yes, I just looked it up. So they are independent Pentecostals, not AofG.





Kenneth Copeland is independent too, not part of AofG, same with Brown.




In Canada AofG is PAOC and they rejected the Toronto Blessing once it got going and people were coming back with what was happening. Caused a split in a good many churches. It's satans job to cause division, and he does it well.




Yes. It's true. This nonsense came to my home church. It was the people who had the discernment and got rid of the pastor. We had a pastor take over our church who I had grown up with. Loved him like a brother. But he and his wife went to the city for several yrs. and got into this nonsense. He was warned by the district when he took our church not to get into nonsense. He did not obey.

People began seeking out our little church that was meeting in a fire hall. The next thing they were falling over themselves with Holy laughter, so called. They were line dancing to the worship songs. They would come to the front of the church and put on a show. At first our people were stunned. Finally they took our pastor to task and he refused to listen and said he would not "steady the ark". So we did it for him and with the help of the district tossed him out. Very painful for our people, they hated to do it but he gave them no choice. We had a little old retired pastor we all knew and loved take the church to help with the healing. One evening a man who came with that crowd asked if the pastor had a "word" for him. The our little retired pastor looked at him and said " are you saved", the man said "no", our pastor said "then my word for you is repent and be saved". And all that crowd disappeared once we tossed the pastor out. I don't live there now, so I don't know how things are going for the PAOC. I know that little group moved into a church and have had no issues since.

Kayla, these guys are succeeding in keeping you occupied in a fruitless effort to enlighten them. But you can't enlighten the willfully ignorant. They will answer to the Holy Spirit. In the meantime, I would encourage you to abandon this vain repetition and use your time on better pursuits.

TD, Gideon, again, those who seek worldly proof of spiritual things shall have neither. Good luck with that.

 

[Heaven_Bound]

Yes, it's weird, and similar looking at it only on the surface. But on closer examination, the gibberish tongues is done in many pagan religions. When you compare Kundalini tongues with Charismatic tongues side by side, it's pretty much the same. There's plenty of youtube videos that can be examined. It's been proven that anyone can do it if they try hard enough. Even with the spontaneity and fluency, so that doesn't prove miraculous. It's a human ability, howbeit weird. But it's a pseudo-language, because it doesn't have language structure, so it can't convey meaning.

But Biblical tongues was miraculous, as is shown by Acts 2. And when we realize that the Acts 2 description is key to understanding the other mentions of tongues, we can see that the tongues in the NT is actual languages, which convey meaning. It's called historical precedent. When tongues was spoken later in Acts, the apostles said it was the same thing they got in Acts 2. So it makes sense that Paul is talking about the same thing in 1 Cor.

Incidentally, Paul said he spoke in tongues more than they did. He didn't say "all the time." He wasn't bragging, and he wasn't praying all day long. When he said "pray without ceasing," it's the same meaning as "always pray, and don't quit." It means persevere in prayer. It doesn't mean pray all day.

Why do you think it is found in kundalini and pagan circles?

Why do you think they imitate it?

Why would Satan want to COPY what is of God?

Because it is Real and it is Powerful!

Satan only copies what he knows is so Powerful it destroys his efforts.

If you cannot tell the feel the Power behind those who Speak in Tongues and those who fake it through Pagan Practices, you clearly do not have the Gift of Discernment.

 

[ResidentAlien]

I can't figure out if Sid Roth actually believes this or if he's secretly getting a good laugh out of it. If this doesn't convince you of Roth's credibility I don't know what will.

There's another part of this video I can't find right now where Roth says the reason for speaking in an angelic language is because Satan can't understand it, so you can slip one by him. But wait, I thought Satan was an angel! You're telling me he can't understand "angelic?" The IQ level of some of these people is simply astounding.

 

[studentoftheword]

The Video is Nuts ---no person can teach you how to speak in tongues --Folks----it comes from your Spirit man -by and through the Holy Spirit ---the Holy Spirit resides in the center of a person -----it is the Heart of a person -----so Tongues is given not learned -----your mind is not involved in speaking in the gift of tongues ----it is the Holy Spirit speaking not us ------- Sid is definitely teaching spooky pookey stuff here ------I say Run Forest Run away from that teaching ------

 

[CS1]

I can't figure out if Sid Roth actually believes this or if he's secretly getting a good laugh out of it. If this doesn't convince you of Roth's credibility I don't know what will.

There's another part of this video I can't find right now where Roth says the reason for speaking in an angelic language is because Satan can't understand it, so you can slip one by him. But wait, I thought Satan was an angel! You're telling me he can't understand "angelic?" The IQ level of some of these people is simply astounding.

the word of God is the final authority, not Sid Roth or you or me. Buses happen in all groups including with those you make attend

 

[TDidymas]

Why do you think it is found in kundalini and pagan circles?

Because many centuries ago, someone found out they could do it, and it was so mysterious to them they thought the gods were speaking through them. It was then propagated to close circles in every religion since then. These days there are pockets in Islam, Hinduism, Voodoo, Mormonism, and I'm sure many others who practice it.

Why do you think they imitate it?

I don't believe they are imitating anything. It's a human phenomenon and inherent ability, related to the language function of the brain.

Why would Satan want to COPY what is of God?

I don't think it's Satan. Like I said, it's a human ability, but is thought of as divine. But why they do it, I think it's because they desperately want something connecting them to God (or to "the gods").

Because it is Real and it is Powerful!

Well, I'd like to hear you describe the power beyond inner feelings; that is, power affecting the physical world. So far, I just don't see it. The only power I see about it is the power of deception and superstition, to make people behave in certain ways. It's the power of fear, because of the unknown and the religious association.

Satan only copies what he knows is so Powerful it destroys his efforts.

I think Satan is involved in the fact that people are deceived about its nature. They think it's of divine origin, but I believe it to be of human origin.

If you cannot tell the feel the Power behind those who Speak in Tongues and those who fake it through Pagan Practices, you clearly do not have the Gift of Discernment.

Here is where our paths diverge. Feelings are notoriously unreliable. So feeling powerful is not the criteria for measuring power. The power of God is shown in obvious miracles like instantaneous healings, raising of the dead, and such. The power of God was shown in Acts 2 when the apostles spoke actual foreign languages, and people heard and understood them.

But according to your statement, there are not many Charismatic leaders who have the gift of discernment, because they're still letting people speak fake tongues in their churches.

But to qualify what I'm saying, I believe the true gift is the same one described in Acts 2. That is, a real language miraculously spoken since they didn't learn it naturally. I've yet to see one like that myself. Can you point out even one single youtube video of someone speaking a real miraculous language?

 

[Heaven_Bound]

Because many centuries ago, someone found out they could do it, and it was so mysterious to them they thought the gods were speaking through them. It was then propagated to close circles in every religion since then. These days there are pockets in Islam, Hinduism, Voodoo, Mormonism, and I'm sure many others who practice it.

I don't believe they are imitating anything. It's a human phenomenon and inherent ability, related to the language function of the brain.

I don't think it's Satan. Like I said, it's a human ability, but is thought of as divine. But why they do it, I think it's because they desperately want something connecting them to God (or to "the gods").

Well, I'd like to hear you describe the power beyond inner feelings; that is, power affecting the physical world. So far, I just don't see it. The only power I see about it is the power of deception and superstition, to make people behave in certain ways. It's the power of fear, because of the unknown and the religious association.

I think Satan is involved in the fact that people are deceived about its nature. They think it's of divine origin, but I believe it to be of human origin.

Here is where our paths diverge. Feelings are notoriously unreliable. So feeling powerful is not the criteria for measuring power. The power of God is shown in obvious miracles like instantaneous healings, raising of the dead, and such. The power of God was shown in Acts 2 when the apostles spoke actual foreign languages, and people heard and understood them.

But according to your statement, there are not many Charismatic leaders who have the gift of discernment, because they're still letting people speak fake tongues in their churches.

But to qualify what I'm saying, I believe the true gift is the same one described in Acts 2. That is, a real language miraculously spoken since they didn't learn it naturally. I've yet to see one like that myself. Can you point out even one single youtube video of someone speaking a real miraculous language?

I can accept everything you state for the sake of one answer.
Paul stated, These Gifts end when that which is Perfect has Come.
Do you believe that which is Perfect has Come, and can you explain what event or Person, or Example it was?

 

[TDidymas]

I can understand your position. Someone posted Rodney Howard Brown babbling in supposed tongues. I rarely get personal, but he and Copeland launched the abomination known as the Toronto Blessing. It's straight from the pit of hell.

I was not persuaded intellectually, even though I am inclined to be an intellectual. I met people who had an indescribable (then) "something" that I lacked. "Spiritual things are spiritually discerned". (1 Corinthians 2:14). So I began to ask the Lord for the gift. Even then, I had a blockage. The Lord revealed the cause and I was set free.

Something to keep in mind: Only 4% of people who go to church are born again. That included "spirit-filled" churches. A good friend of mine spoke in "tongues" before she was born again. It's a common technique to get people to say a few words that are not their native language to get them to speak in tongues. I believe that to be entirely false and unbiblical. I had no such prompting. Neither was that the case on the day of Pentecost.


That's fine if the pastor has enough discernment. In Australia, there is a great lack. The Toronto deception took root in no time, in spite of there being no biblical basis for it whatsoever.

It's a tragedy. I had AOG people tell me that we don't need Jesus because we have the Holy Spirit. Where did they hear that? At a youth conference run by the AOG. I hope it's different in the US, but what I heard about Pensecola, the antics of Rodney Howard-Brown and Kenneth Copeland do not fill me with confidence.

Who in US Pentecostal circles has denounced the TB? I'd like to know because I don't follow the church in the USA closely. I know of one Pentecostal (not AOG) pastor in Australia who rejected the TB. I know a number of charismatic churches that rejected the TB.

When denomination wholly embraces a deception, I have to wonder about just how good their discernment is. As an aside, AOG is now ACC in Australia.

TB was a blight on Christianity in many places. It took hold of some churches in Texas, although not any AG that I was aware of. I didn't investigate the Pensacola event, but the subsequent Brownsville (Florida) revival was something called "the lunatic fringe of Christianity." People were going there from all over the world because of the advertising hype of miraculous claims. Some of them were posting pictures of supposed miracles of what? - gold teeth, gold dust, jewels, and things like these claiming to appear out of nowhere. What nonsense. It's amazing what people will do and say to make themselves feel important, like they've had a divine encounter. I think I know what I'm talking about, because I went to more than one of those meetings decades ago when I was still gullible about those things. Looking back on it, I see Brownsville as a time when they "let it all hang out." I get the idea that in some churches, they consider the "let it all hang out" behavior as being spiritual.

 

[TDidymas]

I can accept everything you state for the sake of one answer.
Paul stated, These Gifts end when that which is Perfect has Come.
Do you believe that which is Perfect has Come, and can you explain what event or Person, or Example it was?

I think we have to get into the mind of Paul to know what he meant by "perfect". In my reading, I haven't seen anyone do a thorough exegesis on it, but then I haven't begun to read everything on it. Most of what I've seen is mainly conjecture. I tend to believe that "perfect" in this context means the new heavens and earth, which I also take as a future event. But this might be due to some bias. This verse is certainly not adequate for supporting cessationism. Nevertheless, the historical record supports cessationism to some extent, at least to show that miracles were not as common as Charismatics purport. And to qualify this, I'm not talking about ceasing of miracles, but rather miraculous gifts that people were delegated by God, to exercise at their discretion. Historically, there have been miracles, albeit uncommon events, and not regularly associated with individuals. I think there was one mention of tongues by Iraneus, but 4th Century Augustine and others said they all had ceased.

 

[Heaven_Bound]

I think we have to get into the mind of Paul to know what he meant by "perfect". In my reading, I haven't seen anyone do a thorough exegesis on it, but then I haven't begun to read everything on it. Most of what I've seen is mainly conjecture. I tend to believe that "perfect" in this context means the new heavens and earth, which I also take as a future event. But this might be due to some bias. This verse is certainly not adequate for supporting cessationism. Nevertheless, the historical record supports cessationism to some extent, at least to show that miracles were not as common as Charismatics purport. And to qualify this, I'm not talking about ceasing of miracles, but rather miraculous gifts that people were delegated by God, to exercise at their discretion. Historically, there have been miracles, albeit uncommon events, and not regularly associated with individuals. I think there was one mention of tongues by Iraneus, but 4th Century Augustine and others said they all had ceased.

Actually, there are records from the Apostles, throughout the Church Father's era, and down the line like the "father of the man who coined Trinity, Tertullian (he was actually the second, Theophilus of Antioch was first)" but Tertullian joined Montaneus and claims he Spoke in Tongues. And that list is complete down throughout the history till this very day.

So, what is Perfect?
Christ
Christ came once and was Perfect then.
Doesn't He Return again (Matthew 24)?
So, Perfect will come again.

Why is it difficult to believe the Gifts of the Holy Spirit won't be active until Christ (Perfect) Returns?


Have you ever read John Wesley's experiences of watching those he preached to have what he called the Holy Shakes and Spoke Utterances?

 

[TDidymas]

Nope, I said you see everyone as a bogyman.

Dramatic wording doesn't make you right bro. Peter sank, why? Jesus constantly chided his disciples for their unbelief. His own hometown didn't believe Him. When He rose from the dead they didn't believe it. As usual you're extremely dogmatic and totally wrong.

Already answered, no facts and generalizations.


Great, and I have even less respect for you and your baloney. At least we can agree on something.

It is my stand, I know my testimony along with the testimony of others. I have missionary friends and have heard their testimonies. I have traveled and been in hundreds of Pentecostal churches full of wonderful men and women of God. I have heard many of their testimonies. So no, I don't need to prove zip to you dude. You wanna discredit the Holy Spirit, have at it. You wanna discredit the power of God, have at it. You wanna call all Pentecostals fakes and not worthy of your respect, have at it. You think entirely too much of yourself.

Yeah? Well a church full of a thousand people is pretty reliable. But to someone with a chip on their shoulder trying to discredit brothers and sisters in Christ, no proof is enough proof. Your best bet is to block me, because I will keep speaking against your baloney.

[/QUOTE]

I can see that you are very agitated. I'm sorry for pushing your buttons. Could we have a civil conversation?

In regard to the beginning history of Pentecostalism in the US, this link is a good summary of it, and I have read the same history in other sources:
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/tongues-false-teaching.196454/page-12#post-4451321
But since you didn't even read all of my original post, I'll doubt you'll read that, or that you'll believe the historical record, because it makes what you do suspect.

But how about my question you didn't answer? Do you claim your tongues is the same as Acts 2?