A Theory of Heaven and Hell

Seems to me they might well be the same place: the presence of God. Good people will find themselves vindicated, and rejoice in that. Bad people, confronted with the truth about themselves, will hate it. What do you all think?

Best wishes, 2RM.

The Bible describes both places, and there are many factors about each which are mutually exclusive to the details about the other. They can't possibly be the same place.

Anyone in hell will certainly not be in the presence of God. Those in hell will have eternal separation from God. I don't believe that 'good' people will find themselves vindicated. If there was any vindication it would be due to Jesus dying on the cross for our sins and nothing that we could possibly do to achieve this. You are right about one thing; bad people will probably hate the truth but by then it is too late.

The principle of Occam's razor applies here, I think: 'Thou shalt not multiply entities beyond necessity.'

Best wishes, 2RM.

Occam's razor is dulled against this one. The Bible describes both places, and a lot of things mentioned about each place make it impossible to be the other place.

Can I ask you to elucidate on your Sheep and Goat claim in another thread? You made the point that you are a Goat - and inflected the meaning with Sheep to going in different directions with an arrow to each side. The Sheep on the left and the Goats on the right. You then said that Jesus was a Goat and cited that claim into a socialist meaning.

How does that predicate (above) sit with your thread OP claim or question?

I'm not quite sure what you want from me. What, exactly, do you want me to clarify for you?

Best wishes, 2RM.

Can I ask you to elucidate on your Sheep and Goat claim in another thread?

Contextually or linguistically the direction of your words (as I described your use of a graphic showing the Sheep and the Goats) implies two directions. Now in this OP you infer a single meaning - the presence of God. As you ask or else imply that you believe that Heaven and Hell are the same place - then how can the Sheep and the Goats go in two directions?

Ah I get you now. I'm thinking there are two directions; good and evil, and whether we enjoy our afterlife or not depends on our nature and character. Those of us who love God and His creation will be happy in His presence, and those who don't, won't.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Then by what spirit do you make yourself to be a proud Goat. Do you love evil? And by what spirit do you make Christ to be a Goat?

Matthew 25:31-46

The goat thing is a metaphor, and quite possibly not a very good one. The point is that goats are more independent than sheep. But you will have to take that up with the authors of the Bible, if you get the chance.

Best wishes, 2RM.

I think you are conceited. If you intend to come into a Christian forum to bandy words with believers then at least have the courtesy to drop the conceit before you imbibe insult.

It might help if you tackled the idea, not the person.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Thats lame. Its also a normal response by those who intend to sow confusion and then dress it up in a guise of being somehow innocent. I can read - you would be better served to do the same. Address your own claims.

You say you are a proud Goat and that Christ is a Goat. You say that Heaven and Hell are the same place. You say that the goat thing is a metaphor and that it may not be a very good one &c. Now you tell me to play the idea and not the man. Is that really plausible when your explanation in your innocent guise asserts, "I'm thinking there are two directions; good and evil, and whether we enjoy our afterlife or not depends on our nature and character. Those of us who love God and His creation will be happy in His presence, and those who don't, won't" - and then you go on to tell me to ask the authors of the bible regarding the Sheep and Goat meaning - if I get a chance.

Matthew 25:31-46

You elected to make your own points. Am I speaking with a man or an idea?

You are talking with me about an idea. Or, at least, that is what I presume.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Your profile says that you are a Christian - yet you elect to identify with being a Goat. You also know well enough that the Goat meaning biblically holds a spiritual meaning that sets it at variance with the meaning of being a Sheep. You also state that the Sheep meaning predicates to a sense of being more vulnerable to government control. In fact you make the distinction so well that it isn't realistic to expect this man at least to believe you are speaking in a simple metaphorical way. There are no ideas - there is only Christ. Are you a Christian or not?

Did you read Matthew 25:31-46.

I'm a Christian. That is why I cast no character aspersions in your direction.

Best wishes, 2RM

I am casting your words at your feet. Either answer your own words or else remain silent if you intend to do so. But inferring that my telling you that you are conceited implies that your refusal to make such strong claims of another when your own words clearly demonstrate their conceit is less than convincing. You live in the UK. So do I - and you speak of your Muslim neighbours. The distance of a thousand miles cannot a veil make that cannot be drawn back. Only in this case the distance is less than a few hundred miles. Be British and start by being plain.

And your point would be?...

Best wishes, 2RM

Congrats to both of you for turning this thread into a peeing contest.

Rhomphaeam wins on distance and volume, but 2ndRateMind wins on efficiency.