When Does Following Biblical Principles Cross the Lines Into Abuse? (A Discussion of Awareness.)

Hello Everyone,

Some recent thoughts in the threads have me thinking about topics that I feel are very important to discuss.

First of all, I want to make a disclaimer: I am not, in any way, shape, or form, arguing with Biblical principles, as I believe in them wholeheartedly. Second, please keep in mind that as a woman, I am writing from a woman's perspective because most of the people who have opened up to me are women. I am not in any way, shape, or form trying to say that all men are abusers. One of the purposes of this discussion is to hopefully encourage men to share their knowledge and experiences with this topic as well.

Occasionally here in Singles, we will have the opinion expressed that the best or ideal Christian wife is one who stays at home. I myself was raised in a family where all but one of the women stayed at home when the kids were young. The one woman who kept working full-time did so because they were farmers and there was no other choice. Two women in my family were lifetime stay-at-home wives/mothers, while the others went back to work once the kids were older.

However, I have seen some instances (outside of my family) where the women were forbidden to talk to anyone else and could not go anywhere without the husband's permission. I'm thinking of a co-worker whom I invited out to lunch, which went fine until we got up to leave. She begged me to go home with her to meet her husband because (I finished her sentence,) "I (Seoul) have to prove to him that I actually exist and that I'm not a man, don't I?" She nodded yes. She was terrified of what he would do because he would automatically think she was out with another man.

Ironically, in nearly every case I have encountered, including this one, the controller who had to have their thumb on the other person at all times was in fact the one talking to other people (usually at his own work or online) and doing the cheating. It was a classic case of, "Do only as I tell you to do, but I get to do whatever I want."

But it all starts with, "I'm (asking, wanting, demanding) that you do these things (check in with me, not talk to anyone else, come home immediately, not work/have contact with others at all) because I'm protecting you. I'm doing my job of looking out for you." It may start out as good intentions, even Biblical. But what happens if it eventually crosses over the line of "protection" and soon becomes control -- and abuse?

I also think about the two girls I used to go to Lutheran high school with. One had done everything they told her to do, including finding an apartment and moving there in secret. He still found her, and emptied a gun into her head. The other was a prominent host on a local TV station -- they were very well-known as the perfect Christian family. Her husband shot and killed her at their home in front of their children, the oldest of whom at the time was 11. Being surrounded by a Christian community is no guarantee that everything will be alright.

I think of another friend whose parents divorced because her mother was kept at home with no job, and when her father started an affair with someone he worked with, he told her that since he made all the money, he would be keeping both women for himself and she would just have to put up with it. She promptly divorced him and raised the kids by herself, even though she hadn't worked since high school. But he had thought he had her under control because he had cut her off from the world with no source of income but him.

These are the things I think about when I hear of situations, whether it be a man or a woman, who is being "kept from others" (not allowed/is discouraged from having friends or social circles) and has to constantly "check in" with their partner "for their own good" or "protection."

A family unit consisting of a husband providing for a wife and family is perfectly Biblical. But when does it start to slip downhill into abuse?

Likewise, I want to keep the discussion open for the other side of the coin. I believe many men are in abusive situations but society and cultural standards keep them from speaking out or seeking help. I would like to know about how we can be of aid to them. I have known many men who were abused within their families, by both men and women, and I've had guy friends whom I have tried to encourage to leave what I observed to be abusive relationships (dating situations, not marriages.)

I must say that I am someone who would encourage anyone who is in a situation, married or dating, that threatens their own or their children's safety, to seek out a separation at the very least. I know there is much debate about this, but my own personal belief (speaking for only myself) is that God does not want us to be stay with someone who is dangerous to us or our children, even if married. I know there are very differing viewpoints about this topic, so if they do come up here, I'm hoping we can still keep the conversation respectful.

On the flip side, I'm sure that others here have also seen men in abusive situations. For example, when does someone's nagging cross over the lines into emotional and psychological abuse? The Christian community often talks about men being able to provide for their families -- but where is the line between a woman or spouse being provided for vs. someone taking advantage of the other person for money?

The reason I'm hoping we can talk about these things is because many of the people I have met in abusive situations thought what they were going through was normal. They were in utter turmoil over what they were going through, but they thought it was just part of relationships and that everyone else was going through it too (meaning that they thought should just keep quiet and never "complain" about it.) And since they were not allowed to talk to anyone else, they didn't have any other frames of reference to know that what they were going through was abuse.

I know this thread may bring out a variety of perspectives and experiences, but I sincerely that hope we can talk about this with a common goal of trying to prevent others (especially young people) from getting into, or staying in abusive relationships that just might be disguised as "Biblical principles" -- that are being grossly misinterpreted.

Thank you so much for sharing and God bless you!

I'm reminded of the old joke about the old farmer who married a woman. They rode home from the church after the wedding, and after a few miles the horse stumbled a bit. The farmer said, "That's one." A couple miles later the horse stumbled again. The farmer said, "That's two." A mile later the horse stumbled again. The farmer sighed and said, "That's three." He stopped the horse, got off the buggy, got his shotgun and blew the horse's head off.

His new wife was outraged at this animal cruelty. She started berating him and didn't stop for a good ten minutes. Finally she ran out of words, and he said "Are you done?"

"Yeah, I'm done."

"Okay. That's one."

It crosses a line when one party obeys from fear instead of love. It crosses a line when the other party must keep control by enforcing dire consequences for disobeying.

I know many men who leave the bar early, or bypass the bar, because their wives don't want them to stay there too long. Their friends tease them about being afraid of their wives, but they do it because they love their wives and they don't want to make them unhappy.

Then there are the henpecked husbands who don't dare set foot in the bar because they can't bear the thought of the flak they'll get from the wife if they do. That's not love. That's control by force.

I’d “argue” that there isn’t a line to be crossed in the sense of biblical wisdom and family structure. The problem is with the abuser taking advantage of something the abused believes.

Abusers are sick inviduals. They prey on the weak and will use whatever reasoning or excuse that makes sense to the one being abused to gain control. Whether it is their belief in a Christian household structure or not, the problem comes with the abuser, they would be that way regardless.

They can claim to be a Christian, but that means just as much as me claiming to be a zebra.

While I think this thread is great, Seoul, my perspective is that people need to pray before jumping into marriages. We as people need to understand our worth in Jesus Christ and we need to make others aware of what abuse looks like. Even then, I bet people will still fall into these situations and choose to stay in them until it’s almost or quite literally too late.

I guess my overall thought is that it doesn’t matter the excuse given or “tool” used, an abuser will find a way to abuse. If that tool is our faith, then we should be making sure our faith is strong enough in the Lord, so He can open our eyes to danger. (Not that He didn’t do that for those sad stories above.)

Another great post...

I think when serving the leader (in any dynamic, including marriage), it does matter that the leader also values and respects the subordinate or subordinates, lol.

What do we do when they don't to a point of abuse (especially chronic)?

Pray and seek help, but sometimes a leader is not suited to be one and I don't think we should accept abuse!!!

Abuse, though, doesn't mean everything that is not sweet and wonderful. I think the counsel of a pastor or a Christian couple can help.

I am guilty of leaving abuse (wasn't a pure party though). I battled with my choice being ok with God.


Well that's between me and Him at this point...

I think the whole topic really highlights the importance of trust. If you can't trust your partner (or they can't trust you) you shouldn't be in that relationship.

Beyond that I think one of the best things I ever read about abusive relationships was that they were characterized by feelings of Fear, Obligation, and Guilt. If those are your primary motivations for how you're interacting with your partner ( and that's an equally valid metric for the partner who threatens to self harm or sulk / be depressed for days if you don't come meet their needs as it is for the more classic direct physical force cases of abuse) then that relationship is not a good one.

I think it's also important to point out that in healthy relationships being a stay at home parent doesn't mean never leaving the home or interacting with other people. From groups like MOPS to running children around to various activities most stay at home parents have lots of opportunities to interact with other parents and their children.

The only time there should be any suspicion of a partner is when they're caught in a lie or there's a noticeable and rather sudden change in behavior. And even then direct, non accusatory questions are likely to reveal if someone has anything to worry about (because people doing wrong don't like any accountability or anyone asking questions to make them think up lies). Anyone who is quick to suspect you're cheating on them probably thinks a lot about cheating on you.

Also any protecting a man feels compelled to do (and there are legitimate protections and there are also some non-abusive normal levels of irrational fear that you let a guy indulge just because ( I hear pregnancy can be one of those times when men get extra protective)) he should be able to tell you what he's protecting you from or why he thinks you need protection. If it's a respectful reason that doesn't insult you then it's probably legit; if he thinks that you're too stupid, weak, incompetent, etc to be left to make your own decisions and live your own life.... just leave now.

Basically, if you're are a human being of normal capabilities and trustworthiness you shouldn't let someone treat you like you're not (and conversely if someone else is not of normal capabilities and trustworthiness; you shouldn't let them treat you like it's your responsibility to make up for their lack).

I have thought this many times, while listening to many people complain about their significant others. "Dude, if you can't trust her, why are you staying with her? Is being alone really so terrible that you would put up with this junk just for the sake of not being lonely?"

One more comment I would make (having watched my bro be in a few bad relationships) is that when women abuse men it's much more often a combination of excessive neediness and self absorption and a whole lot of if you loved me you would..... . Also really unscrupulous women wield the power of the false accusation since almost anything they say about a man being violent, scary, or abusive will be acted on first and investigated later while the court of public opinion all goes, well they wouldn't have acted on it unless there were some basis to it.

Reminds me of what the Pharisees did to Jesus, using religion as their excuse.

I really appreciate people's feedback and hope you all will continue to share. Most of all, I hope to make others (especially young people) aware of red flags and pray that they will be strong enough to leave, if necessary.

Whenever I hear about someone wanting to "keep someone all to themselves" (no other friends or contacts,) I always think of a girl I'll call Dana (not her real name), whom I met when were were about 20 years old.

Dana was from a good Southern Christian family (I was raised in the Northern USA,) and I mention this because I'm under the impression that male and female roles/expectations are a bit more defined and traditional than in the South. If I'm wrong, please feel free to correct me, but I think that's important to note because I think she felt an even stronger obligation to follow her man's lead due to stronger gender expectations in the South.

Dana was engaged to a guy whom I'll call John (not his real name.) I had a boyfriend as well at the time, and she started asking me about my relationship with him.

Dana confided in me that because they were now engaged, John was pushing her to do more and more sexual things, and when she said no or expressed her uneasiness with his requests (because she still wanted to wait until they were fully married,) he would say, "Well, you must be cheating on me because if you won't do (these things) with me, it means you're doing them with another guy."

She asked me if my boyfriend did the same thing (accused me of wrongdoing if I didn't do what he wanted,) and I told her, "No way!!! And if he did, I sure wouldn't be talking to him anymore."

It wasn't just about sexual topics either -- he pretty much put her under lock and key and accused her of cheating whenever she wouldn't do what he wanted. After all, he was going to be her husband, and she was going to be his wife, and therefore, it was Biblical that she obey him in all things. Proving her loyalty and Godliness to him meant doing whatever he said or wanted done.

Dana did not know that she was in a manipulative, abusive situation because she thought this was what every man did. I might be wrong, but I think this was exacerbated by the fact that she grew up in the South, and she felt that it was "ladylike" and "proper" to just go along whatever her man said.

She eventually broke up with John and some time later, found a man of God who treated her with real respect and care.

One of the primary reasons I wrote this thread is because I was thinking of Dana.

She was young and in her first and only serious relationship up until that time, so she had no way of knowing that things could and should be different except by talking to another woman.

If I can, I hope to prevent this from happening to anyone else we can reach who doesn't realize that this kind of treatment is wrong.

Im trying to think if its actually biblical to lock someone up and not allow them the key

I thought we christians were given the key to the kingdom. So in a marriage both of you will have keys and can be free to come and go as you like (not just one person has the keys)

Unless I am reading the Bible wrong?

When you turn 21 in many cultures, you are given a (symbolic) key, that means you can be trusted to have responsibility. I dont know about marriages for people who are under 21 whether one or both parties treat each other as children or pets. ?! I mean a dog you can fence in and keep on a leash, but you cant do that to a woman.

Dont think you could do that to a man either. Unless hes a criminal and guilty and you keep him in jail.

Although, I have heard of some wives dobbing in their partners and also of 'crim wives'.

scripture coming to mind..we are not called to bondage.

I am supposing there are healthy bonds and destructive bonds. if somone cheats let him or her leave to cheat with their lover ? You dont have to stay married to a cheater.

Personally I dont think could ever be a robot and just go along with EVERYTHING a man says, Come on what many men say is a actually a load of rubbish. If they arent doing things in the Lord then not sure why you have to follow them, even if you are engaged to be married to them. You can break it off.

if you are married well its tougher but you did marry for better or WORSE. Unless you signed a pre nuptial agreement or something. But making vows (or taking oaths) is actually not Christian anyway. I find that christian marriages tend to be problematic. God can take a married couple and they can both grow to love the Lord despite being married to each other ....but anyone that is saved and single is a million times much better off staying that way IMHO

for one thing you need not worry about finding food and shelter for dependent children if your husband fails to provide...in the Bible men like that are 'worse than infidels'. although thats a lot of pressure on the husbands and a wife can only work so many hours before she drops dead exhausted as housework never ends.

I want to clarify what I was thinking of when I speak of "Biblical principles" in this thread.

This is just my own take, and I realize others will have their own, but when I say Biblical principles in this thread, I am not necessarily thinking of specific passages or exact Biblical commands.

Rather, I'm thinking of things such as discussions we've had on the forum in the past about how some Christians' ideal of a Godly family consists of a husband who works and a wife who stays at home (particularly with the kids when they come along.)

To my knowledge, there is no command in the Bible stating this, and it is not the only option for Christian families.

In the same way, some Christians on the forum will express a desire for a husband who provides for his family -- but again, this isn't a specific Biblical rule for everyone, and there are many families today where a wife is the breadwinner or both spouses earn similar incomes.

Rather, what I'm asking is how, where, and when do people's own interpretations of how they want to set up a Godly marriage or family cross the line?

For example:

Brother Joe might have started out with every intention of providing for and protecting his wife, Sister Sally. But somewhere along the way, it dissolved into Sally not being allowed to work, attend social functions (even at church,) or have any other outside influence on her life. He has to know where she is at all times, and she is not allowed to speak to anyone without his permission, including how long she can speak with them. In the meantime, Brother Joe is spending a little too much time talking with Flirty Fay at his place of work.

But Brother Joe doesn't see it and thinks nothing is wrong. If you were to ask him, he is acting as a faithful man of God who is going to work every day and lovingly providing for and protecting his wife.

Likewise:

Brother Bob earns a good salary at his job, but no matter how much he earns or how many promotions he gets, it's just not enough for his wife, Sister Tracy. She doesn't work, but is very active at her church and social circles. She does a lot of work for charity and feels a need to impress people. Therefore, she is always pressing Brother Bob for more, more, more.

She has to be the one who gives the most impressive amounts in her charity groups, she has to have the latest things to impress the people she is around, and she has to able to go to every event and conference that comes up.

Brother Bob is exhausted, but all Sister Tracy says to him is, "Why aren't you doing more?"

But if you ask her about it, she would cite all the work she does for God by participating in church and charity. She sees herself as a humble servant of the Lord whose husband needs to provide for her.

I think we would all agree that both situations are waving huge red flags that need to be addressed and hopefully changed. So I'm asking the audience questions such as:

* How do you recognize when things are starting to go wrong, and what should be done about it?


These are the types of issues that I am personally asking about, but also feel free to add any of your own.

I may be wrong, but based on my observations from movies, documentaries, real life, etc., the profile of the stereotypical abuser described above is that he is typically a bit uneducated, can't control his emotions, is controlling, and is very insecure. But, I believe insecurity, which causes lack of trust, is the primary reason why he is/becomes an abuser. I think the man's feeling of lack in some way causes his insecurity. The profile of the abusive woman (for women, perhaps being more emotionally abusive, than physical) is also likely the same.

I believe even the good marriages (built of love, trust, all the good things) are also fragile at the same time. What I mean by "fragile" is even after decades of good times, and then one bad mistake or hurt happens, then boom the foundation may shatter a bit. (For example in the sitcom King of Queens, the couple Doug and Carrie are on a flight and there is sudden turbulence, and Doug takes the only oxygen mask in the row for himself instead of giving it to Carrie. This is sitcom/comedy but Carrie later states that things happen in life which change the way you view the person forever). When glass shatters, even when you put back the pieces, you can still see the cracks. So bad marriages are EXTREMELY fragile in that every small issue (such as spouse taking a quick glance at an attractive person) fuels insecurity and can be blown out of proportion.

Because the marriage is extremely fragile, the controlling spouse believes he has to control every single situation which includes movements of his wife under the pretense of protection. I think all/most husbands are a bit this way, as they do have a sincere yearning to protect, but with abusive husbands this crosses over into abuse.

I think there are valid reasons to being stay at home moms/house-wives, such as taking care of the children. However, even in these situations the wife should have some freedom to do what she wants, such as going shopping with her girlfriends or even drop off the kids at the grandparents' and go to the bookstore/coffeeshop, etc. None of these types of activities should arouse the husband's suspicions. I once mentioned that I know someone who drops off her child at the grandparents so she can go swimming (she loves swimming) which her traditional MIL could not understand.

However, if the husband wants the wife to be a stay at home mom/wife simply to keep an eye on her and so she doesn't mingle with other men such as male coworkers, then I believe there are some big issues. Above I mentioned that marriages are fragile, so one might believe that the husband has some reason to control the wife. However the fragility issue is caused by personal insecurity issues not really from the other spouse's actions. So what must be treated is the insecurity, not controlling the spouse.

dont think there is any line to be crossed when theres completely unrealistic expectations involved.
Its just a fantasy!

suburbia isnt necessarily christian or Godly. lol
Suburbs are fine as 'baby farms' but they dont always work esp if the young mothers dont find some way to pool their resources and help each other out or grandparents arent willing to help with childcare.

likewise husbands also need to find ways to provide for family and also help each other out as husbands in their workplaces and the workplaces need to be family friendly and not assume that its every man for himself. Children are depending on that income for their survival and safety its not for someone to drink away.

also babies dont stay babies.,.they grow up and most eventually leave home if and when they can.
home is nice but sometimes you do need a break from it.

I would argue that what you are talking about has nothing to do with Biblical principles. Real love doesn't smother or seek to control the other. It doesn't need to, because both parties give of themselves willingly.

Hi @TheIndianGirl,

Thank you very much for this post. I've never watched The King of Queens so I was taken aback when you mentioned the husband taking the one available oxygen mask on the plane for himself, rather than giving it to his wife. Wow. I really have to applaud the writers who thought to make that episode.

I don't think any of us could actually say what we would do in that kind of possibly life-or-death situation unless we were actually faced with it.

I want to add that abusers and those who are abused fit every kind of demographic that exists (and I'm sure you weren't meaning to say in your post that they all fit some kind of stereotype.) But I just wanted to stress that no one is completely insulated or exempt from this, so hopefully no one will think, "Well, that can't happen to me because I'm not such and such," or, "Well, I see a few things like that in my own relationship but my partner is way too (educated, self-confident, earns too much money) to fit that description."

I have known a few women and read several articles about those who were in relationships/marriages with very highly educated, high-earning men who were also extremely controlling. I had a female college professor who felt trapped in a situation like this and she emphasized the fact that statistically, she had everything going for her and made her one of the least likely for this to happen to, but it did, and it took her years to leave.

Ironically, some of the most self-confident people are also the most insecure. In almost every abusive situation I've been around, the controlling partner thought they were all that and yet were terribly insecure that no one would really love them at the same time -- so they were often seeking "love" (attention) from several potential partners at the same time.

These people saw nothing wrong with trying to fill their own gaping emptiness with multiple partners, but at the same time, wanted to keep and reserve one person for themselves at home. They did everything in their power to control everything about that person's life, all because they were afraid that their "fallback" person would go out and do exactly what they themselves were doing.

But they would use excuses such as, "The world is a dangerous place, and I'm just (doing my job as a man) trying to protect you from it."

Funny that they then had absolutely no reservations about going out and sleeping with other partners. Obviously, they weren't too concerned about "protecting" their partner from things like STD's.

And again, I am NOT trying to pin this all on men -- please forgive me if some of my posts sound one-sided because as a woman, it's mostly other women who have confided in me.

But I have seen cases in which women do the same wrongs to men in other ways (as someone else mentioned, often through extreme neediness and emotional manipulation.)

Excellent point.

As this discussion goes on, I'm thinking I should have worded it most closely to my post #14.

It's basically about when someone might start out with an idea they base on Biblical principles (protecting your wife; finding a husband who provides for you,) and it turns into something sinister, or when people try to excuse their abusive behavior with "things that sound Godly," such as, "I'm protecting you," or, "You need to do more in order to provide!"