Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

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TMS

TMS

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Amanuensis said:
Notice the emphasis on how it is a RIGHTEOUS THING for them to suffer everlasting destruction. Also notice that the flaming fire of VENGEANCE is what is RIGHTEOUS. It is indeed a righteous thing that brings us great HOPE that the wicked, especially those that have persecuted the prophets and the saints would suffer eternal vengeance of God's flame of destruction EVERLASTING. Shout Hallelujah! Those who know God rejoice that this will happen. It is part of our HOPE!
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Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Jesus loves His enemies. what would be more loving and what would be more unloving?

1. To cause people to remain alive in burning fire seeing the face of Jesus whom they killed continually over and over forever....
2. Or to cause them to suffer their JUST punishment and cess to exist for ever after.

Justice and Love is not seen in option 1. Eternal physical punishment and eternal psychological punishment is not Justice or loving.

Pro 24:17 Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth:
Pro 25:21 If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink:

Justice and vengeance will come on the evil and those that reject Jesus. But the type that you are promoting is not a loving Gods way of doing things.
 
J

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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TheLearner said:
Brother friend, are you saying Jesus is a goat? Please clairfly, thanks daniel

Problem: each time I visit, I need to recharge spell check. why is that?
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Well, he is the Greatest Of All Time.😂

He’s the lamb without blemish, but he’s not a lamb. I believe this passage is a picture…maybe he is the “fit” man taking the goat into the wilderness to release it?
 
T

TheLearner

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Amanuensis said:
There is a reason it is used by most of the evangelical bible believing scholars and commentary writers. So you seem to be misinformed. Many of the best commentary authors that believe in the inspiration of the scriptures and are conservative evangelicals use their own translations since they are expert in the original languages and also in all the known manuscripts in extant. However many of them that don't provide their own translation, use the NIV for reasons you can learn about in the book "How to Choose a Translation for All Its Worth" If you read other authors besides SDA that is.
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We know that they do read non-SDA because they posted links to them. However, all those books teach the same thing SDAists believe.
 
T

TheLearner

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ChristianSubMissionary said:
You mean pagan occultic Greek texts that preach homosexuality, beastiality, erotica, etc can help define how God in His word would use a Greek word?

There are several examples in modern English which if used as an example of how an English word in the Bible ought to be defined, God is in trouble for speaking perverse things.

Thank God, He already defined His words in scripture (Isaiah 28:10,13,&c) so we don't have to go outside of the text (even Psalms 119 is an aleph-bet primer).
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The Apostles did write in common Greek of the day. So, it is possibe non-christian sources can help with the meaning of words. In fact, it was from non-christian texts that translators first leaned the meaning of Greek words. Those texts had languages in parrellel.
 
T

TheLearner

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Amanuensis said:
I don't know what all that means. I think I am talking over your head so never mind. If you ever start taking classes to learn Koine Greek you will understand what I meant.
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"Koine, the fairly uniform Hellenistic Greek spoken and written from the 4th century BC until the time of the Byzantine emperor Justinian (mid-6th century AD) in Greece, Macedonia, and the parts of Africa and the Middle East that had come under the influence or control of Greeks or of Hellenized rulers. Based chiefly on the Attic dialect, the Koine had superseded the other ancient Greek dialects by the 2nd century AD. Koine is the language of the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the Septuagint), of the New Testament, and of the writings of the historian Polybius and the philosopher Epictetus." https://www.britannica.com/topic/Koine-Greek-language
 
T

TheLearner

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Phoneman-777 said:
If the Cross changed anything about death, why is David "not ascended"? He's not going anywhere until Jesus' enemies are "made Thy footstool", right? Nothing changed.

The dead are as asleep in the grave today as they've been since time immemorial. They "will not awake nor be raised out of their sleep" until the resurrection and God will "hide them in the grave" and "keep them secret until Thy wrath be passed" when the 7 Last Plagues are done, followed by the loudest verse in the Bible, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 KJV.
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David did, when Jesus moved paradise to heaven.

Ephesians 4:8
Easy-to-Read Version
8 That is why the Scriptures say,

“He went up high into the sky;
he took prisoners with him,
and he gave gifts to people.”

Before that,

The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. (Matt. 27:52–53)
 
T

TheLearner

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Phoneman-777 said:
Now, please do what most refuse to do: have a look at Bible developmental history from a PROTESTANT perspective which examines details, clues, evidence, history which is often dismissed as "insignificant" by those "wise in their own conceit"...much like the captain of the Titanic dismissed all warning and ended up taking the watery grave challenge.

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My computer has no speakers.
 
T

TheLearner

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ChristianSubMissionary said:
Ar

Arguing in a circle justifying your a priori by the same.

I believe in "everlasting fire" and showed you how.

If Jesus actually taught eternal torment (not the same as "eternal fire"), then Yes, Jesus loves watching eternal torment.
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Matthew 25:46

Literal Standard Version
And these will go away into continuous punishment, but the righteous into continuous life.”

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And these will go into eternal torture, and the righteous into eternal life.”

Lamsa Bible
And these shall go into everlasting torment, and the righteous into eternal life.

There are scholars that claim that Jesus spoke Aramaic.

Amplified Bible
Then these [unbelieving people] will go away into eternal (unending) punishment, but those who are righteous and in right standing with God [will go, by His remarkable grace] into eternal (unending) life.”

Contemporary English Version
Then Jesus said, "Those people will be punished forever. But the ones who pleased God will have eternal life."


Early Modern
Geneva Bible of 1587
And these shall goe into euerlasting paine, and the righteous into life eternall.

Bishops' Bible of 1568
And these shall go into euerlastyng payne: the ryghteous into lyfe eternall.

Coverdale Bible of 1535
And these shal go in to euerlastinge payne, but the righteous in to euerlastinge life.

Tyndale Bible of 1526
And these shall go into everlastinge payne: And the righteous into lyfe eternall.
 
T

TheLearner

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ChristianSubMissionary said:
Yes all those texts and words of scripture are all absolutely true.

You simply confuse and conflate them together.

Eternal fire is not eternal torment.

Everlasting punishment is not eternal torment.

Weeping and wailing, etc is never said to be eternal or everlasting.

Death is never life or eternal life/living.
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Definition of punishment

1: the act of punishing
2a: suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution
b: a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure
3: severe, rough, or disastrous treatment
Synonyms for punishment
Synonyms

castigation, chastisement, comeuppance, correction, desert(s), discipline, nemesis, penalty, wrath
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/punishment

Word Pictures: "The word aiwniov (from aiwn, age, aevum, aei) means either without beginning or without end or both. It comes as near to the idea of eternal as the Greek can put it in one word. It is a difficult idea to put into language."
 
A

Amanuensis

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TheLearner said:
We know that they do read non-SDA because they posted links to them. However, all those books teach the same thing SDAists believe.
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I get the impression that they also rely on their founders writings to help them interpret the bible. Some woman name EG White I think. But maybe also other leaders in their movement that they give "prophet" status to.
 
A

Amanuensis

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TheLearner said:
Matthew 25:46

Literal Standard Version
And these will go away into continuous punishment, but the righteous into continuous life.”

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And these will go into eternal torture, and the righteous into eternal life.”

Lamsa Bible
And these shall go into everlasting torment, and the righteous into eternal life.

There are scholars that claim that Jesus spoke Aramaic.

Amplified Bible
Then these [unbelieving people] will go away into eternal (unending) punishment, but those who are righteous and in right standing with God [will go, by His remarkable grace] into eternal (unending) life.”

Contemporary English Version
Then Jesus said, "Those people will be punished forever. But the ones who pleased God will have eternal life."


Early Modern
Geneva Bible of 1587
And these shall goe into euerlasting paine, and the righteous into life eternall.

Bishops' Bible of 1568
And these shall go into euerlastyng payne: the ryghteous into lyfe eternall.

Coverdale Bible of 1535
And these shal go in to euerlastinge payne, but the righteous in to euerlastinge life.

Tyndale Bible of 1526
And these shall go into everlastinge payne: And the righteous into lyfe eternall.
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Wow! @TheLearner I did not know this. Well done. This needs further analysis from the Greek but I think it is a strong argument against what @ChristianSubMissionary has been saying when insisting that the word does not mean torment.
 
T

TheLearner

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Amanuensis said:
I get the impression that they also rely on their founders writings to help them interpret the bible. Some woman name EG White I think. But maybe also other leaders in their movement that they give "prophet" status to.
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Early on, many SDAists were Semi-Arians. Ellen White's Husband and many others were Minister's of the Christian Connexton Movement. They taught that the Son of God had a beginning in eternity past before the creation of our Universe.

Google christian connexton movement seventh day adventist
and, look for SDA sites.

https://adventistbiblicalresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/trinitydoc-among-sda_0.pdf

Google Seventh Day Adventists Semi-Arian sites
 
TMS

TMS

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TheLearner said:
Early on, many SDA's were Semi-Arians.
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They may have been investigating the subject but i know that SDA's do not support the semi Arian teachings today. I know because it was a controversial subject in the past that caused some to leave the church. If you want to know what the Church believe about The God head look up the Fundamental beliefs of the Church.
 
Phoneman-777

Phoneman-777

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TheLearner said:
That is spiritual death like Adam and Eve experienced.
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Spiritual Death of the Soul is always referred to in the present tense...therefore, Literal Death of the Soul aka Annihilation is what's referred to in the future tense, more specifically, the Lake of Fire.
 
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