The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

Yes I understand exactly what you're saying and I essentially agree. My contention is that the two witnesses seem (in terms of chronological sequence) to appear after the 5th trumpet first woe. Thus the dilemma.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is why aren't the two witnesses introduced BEFORE the 5th trumpet? I will add that it's perfectly understandable that this might might not necessarily need to be the case.

FreeGrace2 said:

Regarding "rapture", the pretribbers have included the notion that Jesus takes glorified believers to heaven. That is not true, as there are NO verses that show such a trip.

What this means in practical terms is that those who "are alive and remain" will NEVER see heaven. Ever.

Only believers who die before the Second Advent will have that experience. And trip to there.

Taken up to "the clouds". Only.


I didn't add anything. It's the pretribbers who have added heaven to the gathering, caught up event. They think Jesus will take the glorified believers to heaven. Where is that taught in the Bible?

What is perfectly clear from Scripture is that there is just ONE resurrection for believers.
Matt 22:30 - At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. Singular
Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.” ditto
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. One resurrection each.
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Again, singular, "when He comes". That is a singular event, called the Second Advent.
2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

What do the red words in both verses refer to, if not the Second Advent?

Those believers "who are alive and remain" per 1 Thess 4 will NOT go to heaven. This is proven by Rev 20:5.

Rev 20-
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

The blue words show these martyrs come out of the Trib. The red words show that they are resurrected and will reign with Christ during the Millennial reign, which is after the Tribulation.

The purpose words specifically call the resurrection of these martyrs the FIRST resurrection.

There is no getting around the FACT that there can be NO pretrib resurrection or rapture.

There is only ONE resurrection for the saved, and that resurrection will occur "when He comes" back at the Second Advent.

But you are free to address each of these verses and prove to the thread that they don't say what I believe they say, and say so clearly.

What "didn't you say"? And I do stick with facts. Meaning, what the Bible does say. And what principal do you think has "challenged me"?

Sure. Just point me to the post # where your questions are.

btw, everyone knows that I don't squirm with questions. I answer them, and with Scriptural evidence.

Yeah, the way I see it is that the "2W's 1260 days" run during the same spans as all "SIX TRUMPETS' events [1-6]" (some being in the first half, the fifth at MID-trib, the 6th being into the SECOND HALF a bit... so they are still present on the earth till then, that is, into the SECOND HALF a bit)...
...this leaves a spans of time at the beginning (of the first half) for the SEALS
... and leaves some time toward the end (of the second half) for the VIALS

(each of THOSE [on either side] being less than 1260 days each, obviously, but totaling-together 1260 days [tho there's the "2W's 1260 days SEPARATING these, in between]). Make sense?? lol

I can't really say why they are only spoken of at the point in time when they are getting KILLED (and resurrected and ascend up into Heaven, at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe"... in Rev11... But their "1260 days" ARE mentioned, as they are CONCLUDING)

Yup makes perfect sense to me. That is about the best solution that I can see. Have a blessed evening there and thanks again for your help.

Thanks. = ) My pleasure.

When one considers all other factors (and including the fact that Rev1:1 / 4:1 / 1:19c speaks of the time-period that "must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" including the SEALS--TRUMPETS--VIALS, i.e. the SEALS did not COMMENCE to unfold back in the FIRST CENTURY, as some suppose, aka unfold over some 2000 YEARS [NO! not according to these texts, as well as Lk21:12's info!]), then it becomes apparent that the "2W's 1260 days" cannot "fit" into EITHER half of these "7 years" (since they are KILLED [and resurrected and ascend] at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" point in time!!)









[for the readers: the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:1-3]" IS the FIRST SEAL... and Paul said (back then) that it had NOT YET ARRIVED... and Lk21:12+ says that the 70ad events MUST COME "BEFORE" those!!]

Neither of two witnesses are explicitly identified, all we know is that the two olive trees are two anointed ones in Zech. 4, and in Rev. 1 a lampstsnd symbolizes a church. In Rev. 11 though, based on the “Commonwealth of Israel” theology in Rom. 11:27 where it says that wild branches are “grafted” into the original olive tree. By this analogy, those two olive trees represent a Jewish leader and a Gentile leader.

1 Cor. 15:53 is not necessarily our guide. In that specific context of that letter to the Corinthian church it primarily told them two things: assurance of resurrection, none of them will be disembodied ghosts floating in the air; glorified new body in heaven, nourished by the Tree of Life. Nothing was said about the timing of such a global mass resurrection on the Day of the Lord there.

However, those 144k have everything to do with resurrection, because those are the SAME 144k in Rev 6 and Rev 14, 12k from each tribe of Israel. The Great Multitude are obviously the tribulation saints who follow them. This term “great multitude” was frequently used in the gospels to describe the crowd following Jesus. In seal 5 they are dead and crying out for justice, then in seal 6, when they are praising the Lamb, they have already received their glorified bodies - in white robes of everlasting righteousness, so obviously they must’ve been resurrected, otherwise how could they be there in heaven?

I don't know what point you are making here.

If it is the man child 'as the church' thing then remember this IT WENT UP 2000 YEARS AGO SO DOESN'T HELP THE LAST GENERATION GET OUT OF TRIBULATION.


Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

NOT a separate 'entity' called the 'body of Christ/bride of Christ' FOR THE SOUL PURPOSE of escaping TRIBULATION that falls upon the whole world.

The first shall be last and the last shall be first. HOW CAN THAT BE IF THE LAST WONT BE HERE AT ALL?

How can 'the church' become the 'elders' WHEN IT ISN'T WRITTEN?

How can God not be a respecter of persons IF HE PRE TRIB RAPTURES SOME BUT NOT ALL?


James 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, WITH WHOM IS NO VARIABLEMESS, NEITHER SHADOW OF TURNING.

18 Of His own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

YES OR NO, CAN PRE TRIB BE TRUTH AND THAT VERSE REMAIN TRUTH?



3883. parallagé
Strong's Concordance
parallagé: change
Original Word: παραλλαγή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: parallagé
Phonetic Spelling: (par-al-lag-ay')
Definition: change
Usage: a change, variation, mutation.

5157. tropé
Strong's Concordance
tropé: a turning
Original Word: τροπή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: tropé
Phonetic Spelling: (trop-ay')
Definition: a turning
Usage: a turning, change, mutation.


644. aposkiasma
Strong's Concordance
aposkiasma: a shadow
Original Word: ἀποσκίασμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: aposkiasma
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-kee'-as-mah)
Definition: a shadow
Usage: either a shadow cast by an object, or a faint image or copy of an object.
HELPS Word-studies
644 aposkíasma (from 575 /apó, "from" and skiazō, "cast shade") – properly, a shadow created by turning. Typically shadows change according to the changing position of the sun (being short at midday and lengthy at nightfall). But God doesn't change (shorten or lengthen!)because He Himself is His the only absolute reference point! Unlike a shifting shadow, caused by revolution, the Lord is immutable and possesses all power and life in Himself.


FOR THE FINAL GENERATION 'THE ENGRAFTED WORD DOESN'T SAVE THEIR SOULS, PRE TRIB RAPTURE DOES, MAKING THAT VERSE ALSO NULL AND VOID ALSO.


FOR GOD TO TREAT 'THE FINAL' GENERATION DIFFERENT THAN ALL OTHERS VOIDS ALL THE BIBLE. NOTHING CAN BE TAKEN AS TRUTH FROM THAT POINT ON. GOD CAN NOT EVER BE TRUSTED TO BE THE SAME ALWAYS IF PRE TRIB WERE TRUTH. EVERYTHING IS CALLED INTO QUESTION. IT LEADS TO ENDLESS ARGUMENTS IN WHICH NO AMOUNT OF TRUTH GIVEN IS EVER SATISFACTORY.


AND EVERY SINGLE FACET OF PRE TRIB GOES AGAINST WHAT IS WRITTEN. JUST A COUPLE ARE

IT ISN'T WRITTEN, IT IS 'FOUND'. IT IS SECRET AND NO AMOUNT OF PRAYER, STUDY, OR YEARS OF SEEKING WILL HELP.
DEATH AND JUDGMENT TO EVERY MAN IS NO LONGER TRUTH
MEN JUDGE THEMSELVES WORTHY, SAVE THEMSELVES
GOD GIVES A 'SIGN', SO NO MORE 'COMING IN FAITH' AND NO MORE 'UNDER LAW' SO NO MORE COMING
JESUS LEAVES HEAVEN BEFORE SATAN
THE CHURCH IS DIVIDED
THERE IS NO 'PICKING UP THE CROSS AND FOLLOWING HIM'
KEPT TAKES ON A NEW MEANING
DELIVERED TAKES ON A NEW MEANING
ELDERS TAKES ON A NEW MEANING
TIME OF THE GENTILES SOMEHOW ENDS 'CHURCH AGE'
CHURCH HAS AN 'AGE' OF ITS OWN
LAST GENERATION ARE NOT PROVED AS ALL OTHER
BOOK OF REVELATION IS WRITTEN TO 'NO ONE' AND FOR NO ONE WHO READS IT
ALL END TIME PROPHECY WRITTEN TO 'NO ONE' OR ONLY TO THOSE WHO DON'T READ IT

There's big confusion about the final resurrection. Rev. 20:5 only says that the REST will NOT be resurrected until the millennium is over, while in previous verses the saints are ALREADY resurrected and reigning with Christ for a millennium. Therefore although the term "first resurrection" is used in Rev. 20:5, those saints are more likely resurrected at Seal 6 in Rev. 6. I think we should read Matt. 24:29-31 and 1 Thess. 4:13-18 for a clear and plain understanding.

I have now concluded you know not what you say and I am done.



Not what I have seen...as here. Proof is in the pudding.
Look back at the posts if you are sincere...if not... then you are a leftist....we are finished.

We have much work to do for God here. Stop playing games.

The innumerable number are martyred during the trib.
They are those left behind at the pretrib rapture.
The martyrs that were already in heaven , pretrib, were kept in a room under the altar.
They were told to stay there until their number was fulfilled.
We know their number was fulfilled because the innumerable number are now before the throne. They are not under the altar but in the general population of Heaven. The innumerable number had dirty robes. They had to be washed in the blood. They are those nominal ,carnal Christians ,talked about in the parable of the ten virgins.

Now concerning the 144 thousand, those are ethnic Jews as you pointed out . They are found in heaven for the Wrath is poured out in Revelation 14. Dan in verse 14 of Revelation 14 we see the main Harvest of choose, which of course follow first fruits. The 144,000 Jews proceed the main Harvest of Jews of Revelation 14 ;14. That is why they are called first fruits.

Paul addressed particular issues those churches had in his epistles, questions about the concept of resurrection was one of them. Many Corinthians had no idea what resurrection would be like, some under the gnostic thinking at that time assumed that resurrection is just a figure of speech, only disembodied souls, aka "ghosts" will be collected by God in a spiritual realm without any physical matter. A lot of people still perceive in that way till this day. Paul told them NO, your earthly body is like a seed, your heavenly body is like the plant, God will raise you from the dead the same way He raised Jesus from the dead. That's the general background of that passage.



Didn't an elder explicitly explain it to John that they are saints coming out of the tribulation? Not dead saints all throughout history, but specific ones who come "out of the tribulation"? Those are the same ones who bear the testimony of the Lamb in Rev. 12, reject the Mark and reign with Christ in the millennial kingdom in Rev. 20, the 144,000 may or may not be included.

And what exactly is your definition of "glorified body"? Yes, 1 Cor. 15:53 is a guide, but that's just a guide. In Revelation that glorified body is literally REVEALED to John, first Christ Himself, them all His faithful followers. If that great multitude are not in glorified bodies, then I don't know what it is, man.

Actually we have a lot in agreement, just with a little confusion over some pesky details.

Already in heaven? I doubt it. All the dead went down to Hades, in Greek mythology that's the name of Zeus's brother, in the OT it's called Sheol. It's neither purgatory nor hell, but the underworld where all the souls of dead people are gathered, both the saved and unsaved, both the righteous and the wicked. They in some verses are called "those who are underneath the earth". Jesus personally went down there for two days (Psalm 16:10), then on the third day He rose again, for He holds the keys of Hades and Death. Later in 3:7 this is called the "key of David", it opens the door to set the righteous free from Hades, and it also shuts the door to leave wicked down there for the entire millennium (20:5-6), and after that they are judged at the white throne judgement, and cast into the Lake of Fire along with Death and Hades. When Jesus opens that door, that's when the mass resurrection occurs. Pre-trib doesn't fit into this picture. When it says that He defeated sin, it's not a hyperbole or poetic language, nor is it just limited to his own resurrection. He'll resurrect all of us, and this is how.

Sure I have a ton of scriptures and they all lead to one truth . You don’t get to party with the Lord for seven years while the earth goes through some tribulation in your glorified body. I got plenty of scriptures and two open Bibles and also I am called to this although I do not consider myself a theologian or a church man. But it is a lot of work. If you get that the time of receiving the glorified body is at last trump on the last day with the dead in Christ rising first and then living believers caught up to meet the Lord in the air, consider the the timing of the event The last day, and at the last trumpet It will be a good place to start . The meeting of the Lord in the air doesn’t not equate to The Lord doing a reversal of direction It equates to going out to meet the bridegroom and escorting Him on His journey to pour out vengence on those that know not God and Obey not the Lord Jesus Christ. I honestly see you as a lot of work . Seeing the timing of the catching up of the saints at the first resurrection is a start. If you have any scriptures likewise to support your exegesis . I’m sure we can rattle on . Simply put The Word of God , is profitable for correction , for reproof , for instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be thoroughly furnished unto God works. PS no need to be snarky , tell me what you have issue with and we’ll go at it.

Fg is postribber

that theory would have paul in sheol.
Paul did not get martyred in the gt.
Nonetheless, paul would be in heaven.

There's big confusion about the final resurrection. Rev. 20:5 only says that the REST will NOT be resurrected until the millennium is over, while in previous verses the saints are ALREADY resurrected and reigning with Christ for a millennium. Therefore although the term "first resurrection" is used in Rev. 20:5, those saints are more likely resurrected at Seal 6 in Rev. 6. I think we should read Matt. 24:29-31 and 1 Thess. 4:13-18 for a clear and plain understanding.

I have now concluded you know not what you say and I am done.

Not what I have seen...as here.

Proof is in the pudding.

Look back at the posts if you are sincere...if not... then you are a leftist....we are finished.

[We have much work to do for God here. Stop playing games.

Fg has one mode, " prove a negative"

Fg is postribber

A biblically solid posttribber. I have verses that say what I believe.

Unlike ALL pretribbers.

A biblically solid posttribber. I have verses that say what I believe.

Unlike ALL pretribbers.