The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[Absolutely]

No. Can't be. The Bible teaches just one resurrection for the saved and one resurrection for the unsaved.

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

That said, we now know WHEN the single resurrection of the saved will be.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This verse shows the order of resurrection:

1. Jesus Christ is the first fruits, meaning He is the first to receive a glorified body.
2. This is followed by "those who belong to Him", meaning ALL believers from Adam on. Every saved person belongs to Him.
3. The resurrection of all believers will happen "when He comes", which is the Second Advent.
4. This is proved from Rev 20:4,5 which shows Trib martyrs being resurrected and reigning with Christ, and that resurrection is actually called the FIRST resurrection.

Regarding "rapture", the pretribbers have included the notion that Jesus takes glorified believers to heaven. That is not true, as there are NO verses that show such a trip.

What this means in practical terms is that those who "are alive and remain" will NEVER see heaven. Ever.

Only believers who die before the Second Advent will have that experience. And trip to there.

"""4. This is proved from Rev 20:4,5 which shows Trib martyrs being resurrected and reigning with Christ, and that resurrection is actually called the FIRST resurrection."""
IT SAYS NOTHING OF THAT IN REV 20.
ANYBODY can read it.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Vs 4 they lived on into the mil...AS DID ALL THOSE THAT ARE THERE, WRITTEN ON THE LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE.
Vs 5 simply says that there will be another Resurrection after the Thousand Years which is the great white Throne judgement which would be the second Resurrection.
Then it contrasts ALL BORN AGAIN PREVIOUSLY RESURRECTED....PRETRIB AND DURING THE TRIB. AS THE FIRST RESURRECTION.
Vs 6 simply points to a previous Resurrection nothing else nothing more.
"HAS PART IN" hello..."PART"
Not just those BEHEADED DURING THE TRIB.

YOU are OBLIVIOUS that the first resurrection includes all believers that died before the trib.
You are also oblivious that the setting of rev 20 is "post second coming ",by weeks, months, or days, because believers are appointed as rulers and are GOVERNING as well as satan has been chained and the battle of Armageddon has been completed. That tells you right there that there is no Resurrection at the setting of Revelation 20 because it ( the first resurrection) includes all believers all martyrs it's just saying that those beheaded during the tribulation are part of the first resurrection.

To top it off, the bible says in 1st Thessalonians 4 that the ones living do not proceed the dead in Christ. It is emphatic, which you have omitted or cannot grasp ,that you cannot have the Dead resurrected after the gathering of the living, of Revelation 14.

It cannot happen.
If there is a gathering during the tribulation in Revelation 14, (which there ,is and that is a fact), that completely destroys your notion that there is a Resurrection in Revelation 20setting/timeframe. You have placed the dead resurrected after the living.
Plus ,it would be well after the tribulation, well after Armageddon ,well after Satan chained, well after thrones, which means rulers ,which means the government is set up, in that setting of Revelation 20.

That completely destroys everything you believe.

 

[cv5]

^ Scripture never states of the "two witnesses" that they are "SNATCHED" ("harpazo [G726--commonly called 'rapture']"). Just sayin' = )

Hi TDW
I am once again trying to formulate a midrib point. I know that you support a 5th trumpet 1st woe midpoint. I do see some support for that view.

The problem is the 1260 day ministry of the two witnesses overlap.....5th trumpet 1st woe seems too early. I honestly do not see a strict midpoint that I can define anywhere.

Can you reply with some of your earlier posts supporting 5th trumpet? (just post the links).

TIA

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
1. Jesus Christ is the first fruits, meaning He is the first to receive a glorified body.
2. This is followed by "those who belong to Him", meaning ALL believers from Adam on. Every saved person belongs to Him.
3. The resurrection of all believers will happen "when He comes", which is the Second Advent.
4. This is proved from Rev 20:4,5 which shows Trib martyrs being resurrected and reigning with Christ, and that resurrection is actually called the FIRST resurrection.

Shouldn’t the 144,000 be the first fruits?

When the subject is resurrection, which means believers receiving a glorified body, 1 Cor 15:23 is our guide.

"But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him."

What I read here is that Jesus is the FIRST to receive a glorified body, and then "when He comes" all believers will receive theirs.

Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

Recall that Jesus called Lazarus from the grave, and a widow's son from a coffin, but yet Acts 26:23 says the Messiah was "the first to rise from the dead". And Elijah also raised a widow's son from the dead as well.

So the key to resurrection is getting a glorified body, not just coming back from death.

Also, the word "firstfruits" always has a context. When used in conjunction with the 144K, resurrection isn't in view.

Then the “Great Multitude” that follow them? You know, this may be a fulfillment of Zech. 8:23, that ten Gentiles would grasp the sleeves of one Jew begging to go with him, for they have heard that God is with him!

I believe 1 Cor 15:23 gives us a clear understanding of the "order of resurrection": Jesus first to receive a glorified body, and then, "when He comes" all believers (those who belong to Him) will receive theirs. This would include the 144K.

Look, if there’s only one resurrection, then 11:11-12 is the only record of resurrection in the entire Revelation.

11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them.
12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

There is no indication that these 2 witnesses received a glorified body. Again, 1 Cor 15:23 is clear that ALL believers (those who belong to Him) will receive their resurrection body "when He comes". Jesus doesn't come when the 2W are raised to life.

Whoever the Two Witnesses are, I think it’s not too far fetched to say that they are the Moses and Aaron at the end times, and they could represent the 144,000 and the Great Multitude, since they were mentioned in the 6th seal corresponding to the 6th trumpet. If they are raised, then maybe so will their followers.

Heb 9:27 says: "Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,"

We know that neither Enoch or Elijah died physically. So they are still "destined to die once". For this reason, I believe that they are the 2 witnesses. Enoch ministered to Gentiles, and Elijah ministered to Jews. So both have a ministry in the Trib.

Obviously the Bible doesn't identify either one. However, based on Heb 9:27, it seems logical they they will be the 2W.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"""4. This is proved from Rev 20:4,5 which shows Trib martyrs being resurrected and reigning with Christ, and that resurrection is actually called the FIRST resurrection."""
IT SAYS NOTHING OF THAT IN REV 20.
ANYBODY can read it.

Obviously you seem unable to read it. If you don't see Trib martyrs resurrected to reign with Christ, then you are not even trying to read.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Vs 5 simply says that there will be another Resurrection after the Thousand Years which is the great white Throne judgement which would be the second Resurrection.

No, v.5 DOESN'T say that at all. But it does imply that there will be a SECOND resurrection after the Millennium.

So, what follows the Millennial reign? The GWT judgment. Where ALL the unsaved will be gathered for judgment.

Then it contrasts ALL BORN AGAIN PREVIOUSLY RESURRECTED....PRETRIB AND DURING THE TRIB. AS THE FIRST RESURRECTION.
Vs 6 simply points to a previous Resurrection nothing else nothing more.

Yes, your reading skills are very weak. In fact, v.6 is referring BACK to v.5 about the martyrs being IN the FIRST resurrrection. There is NOTHING in the passage about pretrib believers at all.

"HAS PART IN" hello..."PART"
Not just those BEHEADED DURING THE TRIB.

Hello yourself. As 1 Cor 15:23 says most clearly, "those who belong to Him" will all be resurrected (get glorified bodies) "when He comes". So YES, the FIRST resurrection in v.5 WILL most definitely include ALL believers, just as 1 Cor 15:23 says.

YOU are OBLIVIOUS that the first resurrection includes all believers that died before the trib.

No you are oblivious. I've been saying that all along. You really need to read posts before responding and making such outlandish claims that aren't true. I have been quoting 1 Cor 15:23 over and over, and you haven't EVER bothered even trying to address it.

You are also oblivious that the setting of rev 20 is "post second coming ",by weeks, months, or days, because believers are appointed as rulers and are GOVERNING as well as satan has been chained and the battle of Armageddon has been completed.

There is no "time frame" in the text. Doesn't matter either. The clear point is that after Jesus comes back, ends the battle of Armageddon, and Satan is cast into the LoF, THEN there will be governing rulers, just as 2 Tim 2:12 says. And the Trib martyrs will take part in ruling with Christ, just as 2 Tim 2:12 says.

That tells you right there that there is no Resurrection at the setting of Revelation 20 because it ( the first resurrection) includes all believers all martyrs it's just saying that those beheaded during the tribulation are part of the first resurrection.

Wrong. The words "THIS is the FIRST resurrection" is clear enough for those who can read. That SAYS that the martyrs from the Trib are IN the FIRST resurrection, which is the resurrection of ALL believers, per 1 Cor 15:23, the verse that you keep refusing to touch.

To top it off, the bible says in 1st Thessalonians 4 that the ones living do not proceed the dead in Christ. It is emphatic, which you have omitted or cannot grasp ,that you cannot have the Dead resurrected after the gathering of the living, of Revelation 14.

You need to let go of CH 14. It's a passage about what is going to come. I vision of John. It's NOT sequential.
So "when He comes", which is the Second Advent, "those who belong to Him" (ALL believers from Adam on) will get their glorified bodies.

And of course, the dead will receive theirs before the living ones do. 1 Thess 4. All quite obvious.

It cannot happen.

You go tell that to God Himself. It is very clearly stated in His Word. Unlike your presumption about that supposed trip to heaven after getting a glorified body.

If there is a gathering during the tribulation in Revelation 14, (which there ,is and that is a fact), that completely destroys your notion that there is a Resurrection in Revelation 20setting/timeframe.

This is beyond idiotic. Rev 20:5 plainly calls the resurrection of the martyrs the FIRST resurrection. So quit making these idiotic claims that are patently false. And the gathering in ch 14 isn't in the middle of the Trib but a future vision of when "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected, or 1 Cor 15:23 cannot be true.

Is that your position? That 1 Cor 15:23 cannot be true? Sheeeeeesh.

You have placed the dead resurrected after the living.

No I don't. Your mixed up and failed understanding of all that will occur is what is out of place.

I am VERY aware of 1 Thess 4 where the "dead in Christ" rise first, followed by "those who are alive and remain". So don't give me this nonsense about what I do or don't believe.

Plus ,it would be well after the tribulation, well after Armageddon ,well after Satan chained, well after thrones, which means rulers ,which means the government is set up, in that setting of Revelation 20.

You have too many presumptions. Why not just go with what's written?

Just how long do you think Jesus will need to set up His kingdom? Are you accusing Him of being somewhat ill-prepared, or just not real organized or something?

That completely destroys everything you believe.

You just destroyed your own credibility by all your erroneous nonsense.

Pay attention before you respond to posts that you don't bother to read. Sheeeeesh.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

FreeGrace2 said:
1. Jesus Christ is the first fruits, meaning He is the first to receive a glorified body.
2. This is followed by "those who belong to Him", meaning ALL believers from Adam on. Every saved person belongs to Him.
3. The resurrection of all believers will happen "when He comes", which is the Second Advent.
4. This is proved from Rev 20:4,5 which shows Trib martyrs being resurrected and reigning with Christ, and that resurrection is actually called the FIRST resurrection.

When the subject is resurrection, which means believers receiving a glorified body, 1 Cor 15:23 is our guide.

"But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him."

What I read here is that Jesus is the FIRST to receive a glorified body, and then "when He comes" all believers will receive theirs.

Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

Recall that Jesus called Lazarus from the grave, and a widow's son from a coffin, but yet Acts 26:23 says the Messiah was "the first to rise from the dead". And Elijah also raised a widow's son from the dead as well.

So the key to resurrection is getting a glorified body, not just coming back from death.

Also, the word "firstfruits" always has a context. When used in conjunction with the 144K, resurrection isn't in view.


I believe 1 Cor 15:23 gives us a clear understanding of the "order of resurrection": Jesus first to receive a glorified body, and then, "when He comes" all believers (those who belong to Him) will receive theirs. This would include the 144K.


11 But after the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them.
12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.

There is no indication that these 2 witnesses received a glorified body. Again, 1 Cor 15:23 is clear that ALL believers (those who belong to Him) will receive their resurrection body "when He comes". Jesus doesn't come when the 2W are raised to life.


Heb 9:27 says: "Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,"

We know that neither Enoch or Elijah died physically. So they are still "destined to die once". For this reason, I believe that they are the 2 witnesses. Enoch ministered to Gentiles, and Elijah ministered to Jews. So both have a ministry in the Trib.

Obviously the Bible doesn't identify either one. However, based on Heb 9:27, it seems logical they they will be the 2W.

Neither of two witnesses are explicitly identified, all we know is that the two olive trees are two anointed ones in Zech. 4, and in Rev. 1 a lampstsnd symbolizes a church. In Rev. 11 though, based on the “Commonwealth of Israel” theology in Rom. 11:27 where it says that wild branches are “grafted” into the original olive tree. By this analogy, those two olive trees represent a Jewish leader and a Gentile leader.

1 Cor. 15:53 is not necessarily our guide. In that specific context of that letter to the Corinthian church it primarily told them two things: assurance of resurrection, none of them will be disembodied ghosts floating in the air; glorified new body in heaven, nourished by the Tree of Life. Nothing was said about the timing of such a global mass resurrection on the Day of the Lord there.

However, those 144k have everything to do with resurrection, because those are the SAME 144k in Rev 6 and Rev 14, 12k from each tribe of Israel. The Great Multitude are obviously the tribulation saints who follow them. This term “great multitude” was frequently used in the gospels to describe the crowd following Jesus. In seal 5 they are dead and crying out for justice, then in seal 6, when they are praising the Lamb, they have already received their glorified bodies - in white robes of everlasting righteousness, so obviously they must’ve been resurrected, otherwise how could they be there in heaven?

 

[kleronomos]

Nor do I. It clearly is contrasting the DIFFERENCE between our physical and mortal bodies with our future glorified bodies.

Yes, but THE FUTURE, isn't even brought up THROUGHOUT the entire 1 Corith UNTIL VERSE 52.

UP until verse 52, nothing of the FUTURE is spoken of. ONLY WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN THE PAST. Yet YOU SOMEHOW think it is OK FOR YOU TO

ADD 'future' to every verse that comes before.


PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE THE FUTURE IS MENTIONED for any verse that comes BEFORE 52, Is that too much to ask for?

OR IS IT LIKE ASKING FOR A VERSE WHERE THE 'GLORIFIED SAINTS ARE TAKEN TO HEAVEN?

And while you are at is PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE A LAST DAY IS SPOKEN OF FOR A RESURRECTION OF 'ALL SAINTS' after the day Christ is crucified and raised.




Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

 

[riverhooks]

you are postrib rapture adherent .

Sure I have a ton of scriptures and they all lead to one truth . You don’t get to party with the Lord for seven years while the earth goes through some tribulation in your glorified body. I got plenty of scriptures and two open Bibles and also I am called to this although I do not consider myself a theologian or a church man. But it is a lot of work. If you get that the time of receiving the glorified body is at last trump on the last day with the dead in Christ rising first and then living believers caught up to meet the Lord in the air, consider the the timing of the event The last day, and at the last trumpet It will be a good place to start . The meeting of the Lord in the air doesn’t not equate to The Lord doing a reversal of direction It equates to going out to meet the bridegroom and escorting Him on His journey to pour out vengence on those that know not God and Obey not the Lord Jesus Christ. I honestly see you as a lot of work . Seeing the timing of the catching up of the saints at the first resurrection is a start. If you have any scriptures likewise to support your exegesis . I’m sure we can rattle on . Simply put The Word of God , is profitable for correction , for reproof , for instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be thoroughly furnished unto God works. PS no need to be snarky , tell me what you have issue with and we’ll go at it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
1. Jesus Christ is the first fruits, meaning He is the first to receive a glorified body.
2. This is followed by "those who belong to Him", meaning ALL believers from Adam on. Every saved person belongs to Him.
3. The resurrection of all believers will happen "when He comes", which is the Second Advent.
4. This is proved from Rev 20:4,5 which shows Trib martyrs being resurrected and reigning with Christ, and that resurrection is actually called the FIRST resurrection.

Neither of two witnesses are explicitly identified, all we know is that the two olive trees are two anointed ones in Zech. 4, and in Rev. 1 a lampstsnd symbolizes a church.

But I showed that we know more than this. Heb 9:27 says that "it is appointed once for man to die, and then the judgment". Both Enoch and Elijah never died. So they would be qualified candidates.

Henry Morris did an excellent job of explaining how these 2 fit so well in his commentary "Revelation Record", on page 195:

"Enoch and Elijah are uniquely appropriate selections for this peculiar ministry in the last days. For approximately the first 2,000 years of human history (Adam to Abraham), God was dealing with the world of mankind as a whole. For approximately the second 2,000 years of history (Abraham to Christ), He was dealing primarily with the chosen nation Israel. It is significant that Enoch's prophetic ministry was to the first group and that he preached and was tranlated during about the middle of the "Gentile" (or nations) epoch of history. Elijah's ministry was to Israel, and he preached and was translated at about the middle of the period from Abraham to Calvary.

The third major period of history is the Church Age, also about 2,000 years in duration, during which the members of Christ's Church, through the prophetic written Word, preach to both Jews and Gentiles. This age is terminated by the rapture of the Church."

Actually, no, the Church Age continues throughout the Tribulation, since the Bible says that both Jew and Gentile are "one in Christ".

Rom 3:22 - This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,
Rom 10:12 - For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile —the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him

What will terminate the Tribulation is the battle of Armageddon, which Jesus wins at the Second Advent.

In Rev. 11 though, based on the “Commonwealth of Israel” theology in Rom. 11:27 where it says that wild branches are “grafted” into the original olive tree. By this analogy, those two olive trees represent a Jewish leader and a Gentile leader.

I believe that Morris' observations also fit this.

1 Cor. 15:53 is not necessarily our guide. In that specific context of that letter to the Corinthian church it primarily told them two things: assurance of resurrection, none of them will be disembodied ghosts floating in the air; glorified new body in heaven, nourished by the Tree of Life.

Hold on. There is nothing about disembodied ghosts, NOR glorified new bodies in heaven. Where did you get that?

The verse IS our guide. It is about the single resurrection of believers. Acts 24:15 says there will be A RESURRECTION of the saved and A RESURRECTION of the unsaved. And 1 Cor 15:23 tells us more about this single resurrection, who ALL will be there, and WHEN it will occur. Please don't discount this verse as being key to understanding the resurrection of believers.

Nothing was said about the timing of such a global mass resurrection on the Day of the Lord there.

What WAS said was WHEN the single resurrection would occur: "when He comes". Now, what do you suppose that phrase is referring to?

The ONLY reasonable answer is Christ's Second Advent. Which is "when He comes".

However, those 144k have everything to do with resurrection, because those are the SAME 144k in Rev 6 and Rev 14, 12k from each tribe of Israel.

Please explain HOW the 144K "have everything to do with resurrection". I don't understand this, nor do I see WHY they would.

The Great Multitude are obviously the tribulation saints who follow them.

But none of this is actually relevant be cause 1 Cor 15:23 tells us who will be at the single resurrection of believers: EVERYONE.

This term “great multitude” was frequently used in the gospels to describe the crowd following Jesus. In seal 5 they are dead and crying out for justice, then in seal 6, when they are praising the Lamb, they have already received their glorified bodies - in white robes of everlasting righteousness, so obviously they must’ve been resurrected, otherwise how could they be there in heaven?

You are presuming or guessing with your "they must have been..." comment. What John saw in Rev 6 were the dead saints that have already been in heaven since Jesus took them there after His resurrection. That's all.

There is NO evidence that any of them have glorified bodies. And 1 Cor 15:23 doesn't allow that conclusion, since glorified bodies aren't given UNTIL "He comes". And that lines up perfectly with 1 Thess 4 as well.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Nor do I. It clearly is contrasting the DIFFERENCE between our physical and mortal bodies with our future glorified bodies.

Yes, but THE FUTURE, isn't even brought up THROUGHOUT the entire 1 Corith UNTIL VERSE 52.

But, the fact is, there IS a future all right. So it doesn't matter when it is brought up.

UP until verse 52, nothing of the FUTURE is spoken of. ONLY WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN THE PAST. Yet YOU SOMEHOW think it is OK FOR YOU TO ADD 'future' to every verse that comes before.

The entire chapter is about resurrection, is it not? So it doesn't matter when Paul brings it up. It's all part of the basic subject of resurrection.

PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE THE FUTURE IS MENTIONED for any verse that comes BEFORE 52, Is that too much to ask for?

See above. Your question is irrelevant. The whole chapter is about resurrection, and Paul discusses it in sections. No big deal.

OR IS IT LIKE ASKING FOR A VERSE WHERE THE 'GLORIFIED SAINTS ARE TAKEN TO HEAVEN?

Nope, because Paul DOES get to the subject of the future in regard to resurrection. So you have to take the WHOLE of the chapter to get the WHOLE of Paul's points on resurrection.

And while you are at is PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE A LAST DAY IS SPOKEN OF FOR A RESURRECTION OF 'ALL SAINTS' after the day Christ is crucified and raised.

What I can show is a verse where all the saints are resurrected at the same event.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Jesus receives a glorified body FIRST, then at the Second Advent, (when He comes), ALL the saints (those who belong to Him) will receive their glorified body.

Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Is this being snarky, or what?

I have verses that say what I believe. That's why I say what I say. Can you do that?

It's always interesting to see how posters who can't defend their positions and get cornered react to being cornered.

 

[kleronomos]

The commentator was using the
ESV. The ESV, RSV, NRSV, CJB and WNT are the only translations to use ‘but’ instead of ‘and.’

5She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rulea all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, (ESV Rev. 12:5).

“Of the 99 times that 'tekna' is used in 91 verses in New Testament, only once is it used for Jesus, and that as a child (Lk. 2:28). [Even this usage was quoting Mary's words]. Eighteen times it refers directly or indirectly to Israel's children; 31 times to sons, daughters, and children in general; 30 times to the sons of God, children of God, light or believers or the Church in general; and 11 times by Paul to refer to his spiritual sons in Christ." (John A. Abent, "Signs in the Heavens" p 270).(John A. Abent, "Signs in the Heavens" p 270).

“John clearly is referring to Jesus Christ as the man-child in verse 5, but if he never called or even referred to Jesus as 'teknon,' then who is 'her child' referring to in the same verse?”

(Rev 12:5 KJV) "... and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne."

“The english word "caught" has been translated from the Greek word 'harpazo' (Strong's 726), which means "to seize." We'll see it translated as "catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force)."

A word study of the ‘Man-Child’ and ‘Child’ of Rev 12:5 can be found here:

https://rev12daily.blogspot.com/2017/09/man-child-vs-child-word-study-of-rev-125.html?m=1

I don't know what point you are making here.

If it is the man child 'as the church' thing then remember this IT WENT UP 2000 YEARS AGO SO DOESN'T HELP THE LAST GENERATION GET OUT OF TRIBULATION.


Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

NOT a separate 'entity' called the 'body of Christ/bride of Christ' FOR THE SOUL PURPOSE of escaping TRIBULATION that falls upon the whole world.

The first shall be last and the last shall be first. HOW CAN THAT BE IF THE LAST WONT BE HERE AT ALL?

How can 'the church' become the 'elders' WHEN IT ISN'T WRITTEN?

How can God not be a respecter of persons IF HE PRE TRIB RAPTURES SOME BUT NOT ALL?


James 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, WITH WHOM IS NO VARIABLEMESS, NEITHER SHADOW OF TURNING.

18 Of His own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

YES OR NO, CAN PRE TRIB BE TRUTH AND THAT VERSE REMAIN TRUTH?



3883. parallagé
Strong's Concordance
parallagé: change
Original Word: παραλλαγή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: parallagé
Phonetic Spelling: (par-al-lag-ay')
Definition: change
Usage: a change, variation, mutation.

5157. tropé
Strong's Concordance
tropé: a turning
Original Word: τροπή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: tropé
Phonetic Spelling: (trop-ay')
Definition: a turning
Usage: a turning, change, mutation.


644. aposkiasma
Strong's Concordance
aposkiasma: a shadow
Original Word: ἀποσκίασμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: aposkiasma
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-kee'-as-mah)
Definition: a shadow
Usage: either a shadow cast by an object, or a faint image or copy of an object.
HELPS Word-studies
644 aposkíasma (from 575 /apó, "from" and skiazō, "cast shade") – properly, a shadow created by turning. Typically shadows change according to the changing position of the sun (being short at midday and lengthy at nightfall). But God doesn't change (shorten or lengthen!)because He Himself is His the only absolute reference point! Unlike a shifting shadow, caused by revolution, the Lord is immutable and possesses all power and life in Himself.


FOR THE FINAL GENERATION 'THE ENGRAFTED WORD DOESN'T SAVE THEIR SOULS, PRE TRIB RAPTURE DOES, MAKING THAT VERSE ALSO NULL AND VOID ALSO.


FOR GOD TO TREAT 'THE FINAL' GENERATION DIFFERENT THAN ALL OTHERS VOIDS ALL THE BIBLE. NOTHING CAN BE TAKEN AS TRUTH FROM THAT POINT ON. GOD CAN NOT EVER BE TRUSTED TO BE THE SAME ALWAYS IF PRE TRIB WERE TRUTH. EVERYTHING IS CALLED INTO QUESTION. IT LEADS TO ENDLESS ARGUMENTS IN WHICH NO AMOUNT OF TRUTH GIVEN IS EVER SATISFACTORY.


AND EVERY SINGLE FACET OF PRE TRIB GOES AGAINST WHAT IS WRITTEN. JUST A COUPLE ARE

IT ISN'T WRITTEN, IT IS 'FOUND'. IT IS SECRET AND NO AMOUNT OF PRAYER, STUDY, OR YEARS OF SEEKING WILL HELP.
DEATH AND JUDGMENT TO EVERY MAN IS NO LONGER TRUTH
MEN JUDGE THEMSELVES WORTHY, SAVE THEMSELVES
GOD GIVES A 'SIGN', SO NO MORE 'COMING IN FAITH' AND NO MORE 'UNDER LAW' SO NO MORE COMING
JESUS LEAVES HEAVEN BEFORE SATAN
THE CHURCH IS DIVIDED
THERE IS NO 'PICKING UP THE CROSS AND FOLLOWING HIM'
KEPT TAKES ON A NEW MEANING
DELIVERED TAKES ON A NEW MEANING
ELDERS TAKES ON A NEW MEANING
TIME OF THE GENTILES SOMEHOW ENDS 'CHURCH AGE'
CHURCH HAS AN 'AGE' OF ITS OWN
LAST GENERATION ARE NOT PROVED AS ALL OTHER
BOOK OF REVELATION IS WRITTEN TO 'NO ONE' AND FOR NO ONE WHO READS IT
ALL END TIME PROPHECY WRITTEN TO 'NO ONE' OR ONLY TO THOSE WHO DON'T READ IT

 

[kleronomos]

The entire chapter is about resurrection, is it not? So it doesn't matter when Paul brings it up. It's all part of the basic subject of resurrection.

YES, there is a future. AND IT DOES MATTER.

YOU ARE ADDING THE TIMING TO THE WHOLE PREVIOUS CHAPTER. Not Paul.


1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.


50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.



NOW PAUL BRINGS US A 'FINAL GENERATION' and the difference that will take place

and we KNOW THIS because SOME WILL STILL BE ALIVE WHEN CHRIST RETURNS.

SO WE KNOW IT IS THE LAST GENERATION. SO, THE SUBJECT ISN'T RETROACTIVE BACK TO THE BEGINNING OF THE CHAPTER BECAUSE THE 'ALIVE AND REMAINING' AREN'T BEING CHANGED THROUGHOUT TIME.


1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Jesus receives a glorified body FIRST, then at the Second Advent, (when He comes), ALL the saints (those who belong to Him) will receive their glorified body.

BUT YOU LEAVE OUT THE PART

OF THEM THAT SLEPT - ALREADY HAVING GONE TO SLEEP Do you think IT WAS BY ACCIDENT that was written?





1 Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits OF THEM THAT SLEPT.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. (IF IT CAME THEN IT IS HERE)

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.

OK, AFTERWARD THEY 'AT HIS COMING'. WHO THEN IS THE 'EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER BEFORE THAT AFTERWARD?

OR DO WE JUST START FOLLOWING HOW THE PRE TRIBS READ WHAT IS WRITTEN AND MAKE UP OUR OWN STUFF? WHO IS JOHN TALKING TO IN HEAVEN? WHOS 'FEET' IS HE FALLING DOWN TO WORSHIP? WHERE DID THIS MAN 'OF OUR BRETHREN THE PROPHETS' COME FROM AND WHAT IS HE DOING WITH FEET? OR DO YOU THINK THERE ARE BODIES IN HEAVEN THAT ARE NOT GLORIFIED?

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.


25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

 

[FreeGrace2]

YES, there is a future. AND IT DOES MATTER.

YOU ARE ADDING THE TIMING TO THE WHOLE PREVIOUS CHAPTER. Not Paul.

Please show me how I am adding timing.

1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

And? Paul is simply comparing/contrasting the mortal with the immortal here.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

And?

NOW PAUL BRINGS US A 'FINAL GENERATION' and the difference that will take place

and we KNOW THIS because SOME WILL STILL BE ALIVE WHEN CHRIST RETURNS.

SO WE KNOW IT IS THE LAST GENERATION. SO, THE SUBJECT ISN'T RETROACTIVE BACK TO THE BEGINNING OF THE CHAPTER BECAUSE THE 'ALIVE AND REMAINING' AREN'T BEING CHANGED THROUGHOUT TIME.

I'm not following here.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Paul noted the same thing in 1 Thess 4 as well. And?

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This is what will happen to the living believers "when He comes" at the Second Advent. And?

BUT YOU LEAVE OUT THE PART
OF THEM THAT SLEPT - ALREADY HAVING GONE TO SLEEP Do you think IT WAS BY ACCIDENT that was written?

The red words refer to believers who have died physically. So? I didn't "leave" that out. Anyone who follows end times knows about the 'dead in christ'.

1 Corinthians 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits OF THEM THAT SLEPT.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. (IF IT CAME THEN IT IS HERE)
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.

What would you like me to comment here? What did I "leave out" or what mistake have I made?

OK, AFTERWARD THEY 'AT HIS COMING'. WHO THEN IS THE 'EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER BEFORE THAT AFTERWARD?

First, let's clear up who actually is involved in resurrection. Since we know there will be ONLY ONE resurrection of saved people, it should be quite obvious that Jesus led the way to get His glorified body FIRST, hence; firstfruits.

THEN, everyone else gets theirs. WHEN? "when He comes".

There is nothing difficult here.

OR DO WE JUST START FOLLOWING HOW THE PRE TRIBS READ WHAT IS WRITTEN AND MAKE UP OUR OWN STUFF? WHO IS JOHN TALKING TO IN HEAVEN? WHOS 'FEET' IS HE FALLING DOWN TO WORSHIP? WHERE DID THIS MAN 'OF OUR BRETHREN THE PROPHETS' COME FROM AND WHAT IS HE DOING WITH FEET? OR DO YOU THINK THERE ARE BODIES IN HEAVEN THAT ARE NOT GLORIFIED?

I haven't made up anything. And I don't understand your questions, or your point. Please clarify.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Pretty straight forward. Jesus reigns for 1,000 years and then we all enter the "eternal state", as described in Rev 21.

Sorry I do not follow your questions or see your point.

 

[Grandpa]

HBO had a show about the Rapture called "The leftovers".

It was from the point of view of the people who didn't get "raptured".

They never used the term "rapture" that I remember and they never really had any theological discussions or reasons for why and how it happened.


Kind of disappointing, really. But entertaining trying to see if anyone would figure out what happened and how to be with or get their loved ones back.



I thought I would interject with a little levity. I know these eschatology discussions sometimes get pretty intense. I get about as much from these discussions as I did from HBO. Its nice entertainment but ultimately it is disappointing...

 

[peldom10]

FreeGrace2 said:
There is NO rapture at all. Jesus doesn't take any glorified believers to heaven.

At the single resurrection of "those who belong to Him", which is ALL believers, it will occur at the Second Advent. Again, NO rapture.

There is NO rapture

You are going to HAVE TO provide Scripture that actually describes Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven in order to believe what you keep saying.

Prove your so-called "fact" that Jesus takes glorified believers to heaven. Please.


Does this super snarky quip make you feel somehow better? Or maybe more superior?

I didn't say that...stick with facts...it seems you are challenged with that principal.
Stop being squirmy. Answer the questions I submitted or...we are done here.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I didn't say that...stick with facts...it seems you are challenged with that principal.

What "didn't you say"? And I do stick with facts. Meaning, what the Bible does say. And what principal do you think has "challenged me"?

Stop being squirmy. Answer the questions I submitted or...we are done here.

Sure. Just point me to the post # where your questions are.

btw, everyone knows that I don't squirm with questions. I answer them, and with Scriptural evidence.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Hi TDW
I am once again trying to formulate a midrib point. I know that you support a 5th trumpet 1st woe midpoint. I do see some support for that view.

Yes, I do see it that way. Correct.

The problem is the 1260 day ministry of the two witnesses overlap.....5th trumpet 1st woe seems too early. I honestly do not see a strict midpoint that I can define anywhere.

Yes, the "1260 days" of THEIR ministry STRADDLES the two halves (they FINISH their "1260 days" of testimony at the "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe" point in the chronology).

The OTHER mentions of "1260 days" (or the 3.5 yrs) ALL refer to the SECOND HALF.

Can you reply with some of your earlier posts supporting 5th trumpet? (just post the links).

TIA

Well, though I had mentioned that I've studied the calendar (and Revelation events' TIMING-) issues / SEQUENCES / ORDER, etc, I've not really POSTED much on the Subject... so I'm not sure I'd find much (via Search).




I can try to repeat a few of the things I likely did post... lol ... (for starters... then if you have any questions, feel free to ask!):

--the "abyss / pit" is mentioned 7 times in Rev

--the last TWO are when it will be locked up / locked back up (Rev20:1,3)... so set those two aside, for the purposes of this discussion

--the first FIVE are talking about the fact (associated with) its OPENING... and it is only opened ONCE ("key"... "opened"... "star FALL from heaven"... etc)... 9:1, 9:2, 9:11, 11:7, 17:8 [this last one especially, is not providing the TIMING of its "opening"... notice this kind of thing]

--the last THREE Trumpets are connected with the THREE Woes, per Rev8:13

--Rev12:12 (when "1260 days" are yet remaining [i.e. the 3.5 yrs / SECOND HALF, vv.14 and 6 (both speaking of same time-frame)]) when Satan and his angels will be "cast unto the earth" (and thus limited to that sphere), the text states (at that point) "WOE unto the earth and the sea"... This is not a SEPARATE statement regarding "WOE," but one of these THREE (and many ppl connect it with Trumpet #7, thinking THAT is MID-Trib... but consider that the OTHER two Trumpet/WOE Subjects/mentions do not say "woe UNTO THE EARTH and the SEA" [because the one associated only with the "5th Trumpet / 1st Woe" is the FIRST INSTANCE of "WOE" arriving on the earth (in the form of these plagues/judgment... not that there wasn't wrath/judgment, etc, PRIOR to that point... NOT SAYING THAT. lol)])

--there are three characters that are tied up with the person we call "the ac / man of sin [/ the beast (individual aspect)]"... a man / individual person / human... beast from the abyss / pit... and satan (hope I'm explaining this somewhat clearly enough... let me know... )




I think this is sufficient to get started (I'm sure I'm leaving MUCH out that I SHOULD INCLUDE... my apologies)

I am not sure why you might think (as do others) that there would be a problem with the "2W" existing on the earth for a bit of time into the SECOND HALF before they are KILLED by the "beast" (11:7) and then are resurrected and ascend up into Heaven (at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" point in time, v.14). Can you think of any? If so, let me know. = )

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Hold on. There is nothing about disembodied ghosts, NOR glorified new bodies in heaven. Where did you get that?

Paul addressed particular issues those churches had in his epistles, questions about the concept of resurrection was one of them. Many Corinthians had no idea what resurrection would be like, some under the gnostic thinking at that time assumed that resurrection is just a figure of speech, only disembodied souls, aka "ghosts" will be collected by God in a spiritual realm without any physical matter. A lot of people still perceive in that way till this day. Paul told them NO, your earthly body is like a seed, your heavenly body is like the plant, God will raise you from the dead the same way He raised Jesus from the dead. That's the general background of that passage.

You are presuming or guessing with your "they must have been..." comment. What John saw in Rev 6 were the dead saints that have already been in heaven since Jesus took them there after His resurrection. That's all.

Didn't an elder explicitly explain it to John that they are saints coming out of the tribulation? Not dead saints all throughout history, but specific ones who come "out of the tribulation"? Those are the same ones who bear the testimony of the Lamb in Rev. 12, reject the Mark and reign with Christ in the millennial kingdom in Rev. 20, the 144,000 may or may not be included.

And what exactly is your definition of "glorified body"? Yes, 1 Cor. 15:53 is a guide, but that's just a guide. In Revelation that glorified body is literally REVEALED to John, first Christ Himself, them all His faithful followers. If that great multitude are not in glorified bodies, then I don't know what it is, man.

Actually we have a lot in agreement, just with a little confusion over some pesky details.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Hold on. There is nothing about disembodied ghosts, NOR glorified new bodies in heaven. Where did you get that?

Paul addressed particular issues those churches had in his epistles, questions about the concept of resurrection was one of them. Many Corinthians had no idea what resurrection would be like, some under the gnostic thinking at that time assumed that resurrection is just a figure of speech, only disembodied souls, aka "ghosts" will be collected by God in a spiritual realm without any physical matter. A lot of people still perceive in that way till this day. Paul told them NO, your earthly body is like a seed, your heavenly body is like the plant, God will raise you from the dead the same way He raised Jesus from the dead. That's the general background of that passage.

OK, thanks. I misunderstood your post.

Didn't an elder explicitly explain it to John that they are saints coming out of the tribulation? Not dead saints all throughout history, but specific ones who come "out of the tribulation"?

Are you referring to the Trib martyrs in Rev 20? Or something else?

Those are the same ones who bear the testimony of the Lamb in Rev. 12, reject the Mark and reign with Christ in the millennial kingdom in Rev. 20, the 144,000 may or may not be included.

Right.

And what exactly is your definition of "glorified body"?

A resurrection body. 1 Cor 15:52,53. Actually, the whole chapter is about resurrection where Paul compares/contrasts mortal bodies with immortal bodies.

Yes, 1 Cor. 15:53 is a guide, but that's just a guide.

I see the verse as key. In addition to the fact that there will be just one resurrection, that resurrection will include ALL believers from Adam on. And it identifies WHEN the resurrection will occur, which is "when He comes", a reference to the Second Advent.

In Revelation that glorified body is literally REVEALED to John, first Christ Himself, them all His faithful followers. If that great multitude are not in glorified bodies, then I don't know what it is, man.

1 Cor 15:23 prevents such a conclusion. Jesus would have had "to come" for any believer to receive a glorified body. Plus Rev 20:5 specifically describes the resurrection of Trib martyrs as the FIRST resurrection prevents any previous resurrection.

Actually we have a lot in agreement, just with a little confusion over some pesky details.

I hope to be able to clear up any confusion you may have.

 

[cv5]

Yes, I do see it that way. Correct.


Yes, the "1260 days" of THEIR ministry STRADDLES the two halves (they FINISH their "1260 days" of testimony at the "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe" point in the chronology).

The OTHER mentions of "1260 days" (or the 3.5 yrs) ALL refer to the SECOND HALF.



Well, though I had mentioned that I've studied the calendar (and Revelation events' TIMING-) issues / SEQUENCES / ORDER, etc, I've not really POSTED much on the Subject... so I'm not sure I'd find much (via Search).




I can try to repeat a few of the things I likely did post... lol ... (for starters... then if you have any questions, feel free to ask!):

--the "abyss / pit" is mentioned 7 times in Rev

--the last TWO are when it will be locked up / locked back up (Rev20:1,3)... so set those two aside, for the purposes of this discussion

--the first FIVE are talking about the fact (associated with) its OPENING... and it is only opened ONCE ("key"... "opened"... "star FALL from heaven"... etc)... 9:1, 9:2, 9:11, 11:7, 17:8 [this last one especially, is not providing the TIMING of its "opening"... notice this kind of thing]

--the last THREE Trumpets are connected with the THREE Woes, per Rev8:13

--Rev12:12 (when "1260 days" are yet remaining [i.e. the 3.5 yrs / SECOND HALF, vv.14 and 6 (both speaking of same time-frame)]) when Satan and his angels will be "cast unto the earth" (and thus limited to that sphere), the text states (at that point) "WOE unto the earth and the sea"... This is not a SEPARATE statement regarding "WOE," but one of these THREE (and many ppl connect it with Trumpet #7, thinking THAT is MID-Trib... but consider that the OTHER two Trumpet/WOE Subjects/mentions do not say "woe UNTO THE EARTH and the SEA" [because the one associated only with the "5th Trumpet / 1st Woe" is the FIRST INSTANCE of "WOE" arriving on the earth (in the form of these plagues/judgment... not that there wasn't wrath/judgment, etc, PRIOR to that point... NOT SAYING THAT. lol)])

--there are three characters that are tied up with the person we call "the ac / man of sin [/ the beast (individual aspect)]"... a man / individual person / human... beast from the abyss / pit... and satan (hope I'm explaining this somewhat clearly enough... let me know... )




I think this is sufficient to get started (I'm sure I'm leaving MUCH out that I SHOULD INCLUDE... my apologies)

I am not sure why you might think (as do others) that there would be a problem with the "2W" existing on the earth for a bit of time into the SECOND HALF before they are KILLED by the "beast" (11:7) and then are resurrected and ascend up into Heaven (at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" point in time, v.14). Can you think of any? If so, let me know. = )

Yes I understand exactly what you're saying and I essentially agree. My contention is that the two witnesses seem (in terms of chronological sequence) to appear after the 5th trumpet first woe. Thus the dilemma.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is why aren't the two witnesses introduced BEFORE the 5th trumpet? I will add that it's perfectly understandable that this might might not necessarily need to be the case. What we might think as the rigorous necessity for rigid sequences could be a figment of our Hellenistic minds.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I hope to be able to clear up any confusion you may have.

There's big confusion about the final resurrection. Rev. 20:5 only says that the REST will NOT be resurrected until the millennium is over, while in previous verses the saints are ALREADY resurrected and reigning with Christ for a millennium. Therefore although the term "first resurrection" is used in Rev. 20:5, those saints are more likely resurrected at Seal 6 in Rev. 6. I think we should read Matt. 24:29-31 and 1 Thess. 4:13-18 for a clear and plain understanding.