One taken,one left. The rapture.

Jesus was referring to the traditional Jewish definition of "day" based on Genesis 1:3-5. In that definition, there's no 24-hour day, but 12-hour day from 6:00 am to 6:00 pm, the other 12 hours are all night. When the sun rises from the east, that's when a "day and night" begins as light comes out of darkness.

the "gt" (the GREAT tribulation) is the SECOND HALF only (following the AOD at the MID-point).

Do you mean to say this (in view of that fact)?




[the "pre-trib rapture" is not usually defined in the same way that the "mid-trib rapture" is, just to be clear]

We will see.

But if it is the saved that are taken these verses also apply.
And then shall he send his angels, and gather together his elect from the four winds, from the extremity of the earth to the extremity of heaven.

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with great power and glory. But when these things begin to take place, look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption is at hand.

There is a promised gathering and this being taken to it might be the appropriate interpretation if one can see it as a parable statement about the way the birds gather with no need for planning and figuring it out, and not an allegory meant to bring to mind any unpleasantness associated with griffon vultures, their smell, or their diets. That is trying to read too much into the example if their gathering in a point in the sky was all that was intended to give a hint to the disciples what it will look like in that day when they are taken.

There's no clear definition of this term because it doesn't exist in the bible. According to mainstream dispensationalists, it's a "sudden disappearance" of billions of people that could happen at "anytime", all of them go straight to heaven; some say that it's like an ascension like Jesus's ascension, the Church will be swept off their feet and rise up in the air like a balloon, then we'll meet the Lord "in the air" based on 1 thess 4:17. Some folks here have mistaken the divine protection from the wrath as "rapture". God provided that kind of protection to preserve Noah from the Flood, Lot from the nuking of Sodom and then the Israelites from the Ten Plagues in Egypt. Even though none of them was physically "taken" into heaven, they still take that out of context to justify their false doctrine. If you study it carefully, though, you'll realize that this concept of being "caught up" in 1 thess 4:17 is not in a physical sense. What's being "caught up" is our attention when Jesus returns, not our physical bodies. The Church as the Elect will gather together to meet our King like when He entered in Jerusalem on a donkey, that's the real scenario. And when is that? "Immediately after the tribulation" - Matt. 24:29!

Here's another aspect of the Lk17 passage that I've pointed out in past posts... in addition to what I've already put (including the part in other posts about "and THEY KNEW NOT UNTIL the flood came and took THEM all away"... where "THEY / THEM" does not refer to NOAH... it's not true that HE / NOAH "knew not until"... no, he knew and PREPARED the ark... [etc])... but as far as the Luke 17 passage goes, I've pointed out:

--"and DESTROYED [G622] all" (vv.27,29) is not what takes place at the time of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" to those (unsaved persons) who won't be going in / participating in the "SNATCH [/ rapture]"

... SOME of those persons will be coming to faith in Christ (following "our Rapture") and OTHERS will instead "believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI" (following "our Rapture")...

... but are not immediately (at the point in time of "our Rapture") "DESTROYED [G622] ALL" as this Lk17 text is speaking of (referring instead to the point in time surrounding His Second Coming to the earth Rev19... similar to how Rev19:21 says, "and the remnant were SLAIN")

We will be changed and our bodies will become immortal. We will rise and meet the Lord in the air in the clouds. That is for certain and the dead in Christ will rise first and then we who are alive at the time. That is the rapture. Timing is up for debate the event itself is not.
Any attempt to say that we do not physically rise to the clouds is just being belligerent and there is no sense in arguing with them since they have no fear of changing the plain meaning of the text to suit whatever they want to try and make it say.

After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

13Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

The promise is that there will be some who do not die. They will go from having their current body to one that is glorified like the ones who are dead but rise in a glorified body. Those who don't die first are changed in a twinkling of the eye without "sleeping".

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” h

Both of these passages from 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 are talking about what we call "The rapture" or the catching away of the saints.

for the Greek word translated catching away in the Latin Vulgate the word he Latin Vulgate used the Latin verb-- "Rapiemur"
This gets translated Rapture in english. This is explained in different ways but they all mean the same, the word Rapture is fine. Those that say it is not in the bible are correct, if they mean it is not in the Greek. But none of the other words in the KJV are in the bible either are they? It is silly to make an argument that the word Rapture should not be used. Using the Greek word would not communicate and the goal of speaking, writing and teaching is to communicate so since Rapture does communicate the verses I have posted here that word is the correct word to use. "The Catching Away" could be used but Rapture is usually enough.

The Pre Tribulation Rapture theory is an expanded topic. But Rapture does not automatically refer to Pre Tribulation Rapture theory.

Both Post Tribulation Theorists and Pre Tribulation Theorist believe in the event referred to as the Rapture.

Then there are those who believe in a secret Rapture, meaning that we are changed in a moment and rise to meet the Lord but no one sees it.

I believe the scriptures I posted suggest that it is visible in the reference to clouds. That Jesus rose up into the clouds, and that he is promised to come back in like manner suggests that when he does we will rise up having been changed and glorified and it will be visible to those who observe it. That is a rapture but a visible one, not a secret one.

So the word Rapture should refer to the event of being changed and rising to meet the Lord.

The theories about when it happens in relation to the tribulation requires further labeling, such as Pre Trib Rapture, or whether it is visible, "secret rapture" or "invisible rapture" but the word Rapture itself should be reserved for the event whereby a particular generation of believers who are still alive will not die but be changed into their glorified post resurrection state and rise and meet the Lord in the air/clouds. Visibly and physically.

A few things I normally try to point out first are as follows (mentioned only briefly, here):

1)--when viewing the TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[,23], and aligning the FIRST "PUNISH" word with that of the events spelled out in Revelation 19:19,21 / 16:14-16 / 20:5 (see Isaiah 24 quoted below..., especially the TWO "PUNISH" words in vv.21-22, which are SEPARATED BY "TIME" [a SPANS OF "TIME"]):


21 In that day the LORD will punish

the host of heaven above

and the kings of the earth below. [COMPARE Rev19:19,21 / 16:14-16 / 20:5--at the Armageddon / Second-Coming-to-the-earth time-slot]

22They will be gathered together

like prisoners in a pit. ["pit" in OT terms often means "death" or the grave]

They will be confined to a dungeon

and punished after many days. [note that in the "Amill-teachings," there ARE NO "many days" (or any "days" AT ALL) that come AFTER this point in time--yet Scripture here AGREES with the SEQUENCE that Revelation 19-20 ALSO SHOWS]

23The moon will be confounded

and the sun will be ashamed;

for the LORD of Hosts will reign

on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem,

and before His elders with great glory.



... the SECOND "PUNISH" word aligns with the LATER "GWTj" of Rev20:11-15;



2) the "THEN" word in 1 Corinthians 15:24a ("THEN the end") is a SEQUENCE WORD ONLY, with NO time-element attached to it (set in a CONTEXT of a LISTING of several items in which some take place some-2000-YEARS apart... so there is NO PROBLEM at all with the last two items LISTED to take place A THOUSAND YEARS apart, since this Greek word "THEN" is a SEQUENCE WORD ONLY--IOW, it does not read, "then [IMMEDIATELY] the end," as the "Amill-teachings" insist);



3) uhh... oops, I forgot what my third one was going to be about... I got distracted over here for a bit... so I'll have to give that some thought and try to pull it up again... (hoping I can do so before the 5-min time-limit... LOL!)

... AHHH yes... wherever Scripture uses a NUMBER alongside the word "YEARS" it always MEANS "[THAT MANY] YEARS"... IOW, the writer wants the reader to picture in their mind / understand "[THAT MANY] YEARS" when reading the text

Yes, this is the First Resurrection in Rev 20. Not necessarily a teleportation into heaven - because saints are here to stay and reign with Christ.

There are two ways to interpret what Jesus said and the word "Taken".
Jesus might have intended to be understood this way. "Just as those at the time of Noah were focused on seeking pleasure in this life with no attempt to repent at the preaching of Noah until they were destroyed by the flood so it will be when Jesus comes back in judgment. People will be focused on seeking their own pleasure in the world ignoring the preachers and call to repentance and it will come upon them and they will experience that judgment and wrath of the Lamb.
We know that the judgment is not just one 24 hours day. It is a series of judgments as spelled out in Revelation. The day of the Lord is a fierce day of wrath where many things will come upon them in a short period of time but but it will not be one where everyone is whipped out in one day.
Therefore one being taken and the other left seems to refer to those that are left are the ones that would suffer the judgments we read about.

There is no one day judgment that we read about. So being taken in one day and only the saved left does not fit the picture of how the judgments are going to be administered.

If the one taken is the one that is judged then we would have to apply each of the examples he gave as occurring on a differernt day. Like one day the woman at the grinding wheel is taken by a 100 lb hail stone. And the other is spared. Another day one is in the field and killed by wild beasts, and another spared. One day someone drinks poisoned water and is taken but another is spared. It gets clumsy and not likely what Jesus intended.

But if we see it as the one taken in the rapture and the other left behind to face judgment because they were not ready for the coming of the Lord it makes sense.

Also if we look at the fact that those who don't have time to go back in their house to get their belongings are the ones taken it is also a picture of the rapture. The one judged is the one who would try and go back for something. Remember Lots wife.

Trying to figure out how that works (the millennial) should not cause us to discount the blessed hope of the change, and rising in the air to meet the Lord as if it were not going to really happen physically because we are not supposed to leave.

One must embrace that glorious hope and leave off trying to figure out exactly how we go from there to some other part of prophesy.

That meeting with the Lord in the air / clouds with glorified bodies is the entrance into "That which is perfect is come" spoken about in 1 Cor 13 when we see him Face to Face and there the passage tells us to focus as our hope and what we encourage one another about. We are to speak often to one another about this very event, and not so much about what the millennial looks like since using our earthly pre glorified frame of reference.

Never let the prophesy of reigning with Christ for 1000 years cause you to discount the physical change and rising to meet the Lord in the air as thought it is not more important. It is the emphasized hope. We are to comfort one another by constantly reminding each other about it.

Paul looked forward to this time when we would be made perfect at the resurrection of our bodies and with those who are alive at the time. It was what he press forward to obtain. Any hint of allegorizing it into some spiritual non physical reality must be rejected and abhorred.

So am I understanding correctly that the interpretation being proposed by those who believe that the one taken is killed and fed to vultures happens when Jesus comes down on Mount Olivet and kills all those gathered around Jerusalem. These are the ones that are taken? And then fed to vultures. But how did they get from the grinding mill to the battle? Or is the theory that when Jesus kills these that are in battle that all the other random wicked people in the world drop dead and vultures eat them too?

How does this judgment that is suppose to be like the flood, where it takes everyone at once match the scriptures about when Jesus comes back?

Saints "live twice, die once", ain'ts "live once, die twice", that's how it works. That "air" in which we meet the Lord can't be heaven, that much is for sure, for Satan is still the "prince of the air" (Ephesians 2:2) until He returns. That "air" is the lower atmosphere we're breathing in and out, so the conclusion is simple - we don't go from earth to heaven on the Day of the Lord, the Lord brings heaven down to earth. We don't come to His kingdom, we don't build His kingdom, we don't fake His kingdom, His kingdom COMES - on earth as it is in heaven!

Do you even understand the sequence of events in the future? And then to talk about "teleportation" (which has nothing to do with Bible prophecy)? This is not science fiction nor is it psychokinesis.

It is to the pre-trib dispensationalists. That’s how they pictured it.

Let me start off answering this part by stating what I've put in past posts (for your consideration )... Very briefly (lol):

--the disciples' question to Jesus (posed in Matthew 24:3) was BASED ON what He had ALREADY spoken to them about in Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50 (re: "the END [singular] of the AGE [singular]"... when the ANGELS will "REAP"). His response to their question follows, in the two chapters (Matthew 24 and 25).

So His response PARALLELS what He had ALREADY been speaking to them about in Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50 ("the end of the age"... and He had, even before that, told them of [and they rightly understood]"the age [singular] to come" which follows [follows-on-the-heels-of] that [aka, what we know as "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth]); He was not covering any other Subject (like the LATER GWTj or "our Rapture")... He was covering the Subject of His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [who it is who will ENTER that time period, as "still-living" persons upon His "RETURN" to the earth (i.e. no "resurrection [from the dead]" being spoken of in these two sections: Matt24-25 and Matt13)], and the specific, LIMITED time-period that immediately PRECEDES and LEADS UP to THAT (His Second Coming to the earth FOR the MK age);


--in Matt13, the angels [in their role as "REAPERS" at that point] will be told "collect ye FIRST the TARES"... this is the EXACT OPPOSITE SEQUENCE to that of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" event (bearing in mind that He'd said "let both GROW TOGETHER UNTIL"... which refers to "still-living" things [persons] being "harvested" [not a "resurrection [from the dead]" being spoken of, here--so this carries over to His LATER "response" to their Q of Matt24:3, in the two chpts which follow])




Hope that helps you see my perspective, at least a little bit = )




[p.s. I was going to go into what I've also put in past posts, that Lk21:36 ("[actively] FLEE OUT OF") is NOT a "rapture" reference, as many suppose it to be]

Your "model" fails with the 10 plagues of Egypt. The Jews weren't removed. Just protected.

There are lots of saints in heaven already. The key to your "rapture theory" is glorified bodies. We know from Scripture that at the resurrection, all believers are given a glorified body. No one in heaven not has a glorified body, other than the "first fruits" which is Jesus Christ.

The op is one taken-left.
My post was on target.

You counter with "5months, 5 months, 5 months, 5 months"
"See , 5 months"

...as if you voided Jesus words.
Then you go to some wild gaslight analogy, while not understanding what it is.

Tells me you cant defend your deal.
You are all over the place.
Yes " before the flood"
You know that little word " before", that wrecks all your doctrine

Strikes down any notion of no pretrib gathering.

Then the gathering BY JESUS....NOT ANGELS of rev 14:14 DURING THE TRIB.

Those verses, neither are voided by you, nor is "5months",nor are they going away.

THAT'S WHY you go to off topic side issues.

I suppose you see Jesus taken up into the clouds in acts 1,as some snarky deal also....since it mirrors the rapture of 1 thes 4

Good Stuff.

There is no Scriptural debate as to the exact timing of the rapture = 1 Thess 4 and 2 Thess 2 and Heb 9:28 and 1 John ch2 & ch3 & Rev

The debate is only in the minds of those who believe in false doctrine.