One taken,one left. The rapture.

^^^^^^this^^^^^^^

^^^^^^^yep^^^^^^^

They sling out mat 24 " after the trib" and are totally unaware that it says "angels gather, AFTER THE TRIB ,not Jesus, and the gathering is FROM heaven, not earth."
So that leaves one or 2 other verses that are simply a reframe job of " last trump" or "one resurrection" or "one coming".

Which is so lame and debunked it would shame a true berean, but they shamelessly defend a corrupt doctrine, that started with confused church fathers that thought they were in the gt.

SMH

Absolutely said:
We both believe that.

1. It is the pretrib verses that you omit in order to formulate a false doctrine.
2. For example, we have the hundred and forty four thousand in Revelation 14 that r in heaven during the Great Tribulation. Then in verse 14, we see Jesus on a cloud, gathering the main Harvest of Jews.
3. In Acts chapter 1, the Angels tell the disciples, Jesus will return in like manner as you see him departing. Like Manner, if you look it up, means like Manner.
4. In your Doctrine, you say the Rapture happens at the white horses descending from heaven. That picture is completely different from acts 1.
You can't reframe it and get cunning enough with it to make it the same thing.
5. Nor can you cleverly remanufacture Matthew 24, where it talks about Jesus coming, and Jesus framed it "Before the Flood" ,and in the same dynamic as lot, leaving before the destruction.
6. You also see during the Last Supper Jesus declared he was building structures in heaven for the Saints, and not only that, he said he would not drink of the cup again until he did it with them in heaven
7. Now in your Doctrine not Only do you have the Saints never entering heaven, but there's no way they are going to drink or eat in heaven without a glorified body.
8. We also see in Revelation 19 that the bride has become the wife in heaven.
9. Now you can get real clever with it and change God's word, but I feel sorry for the people standing around you when you do it. There are sanctions all those people that change God's word especially revelation.
Addressing your own post now????

Anyway, I thought it would be helpful to address what you posted previously.

1. There are NO "pretrib verses" that you keep repeated. First line.
2. The next 2 lines prove nothing, other than the 144,000 are in heaven. Doesn't say how or when. So you have to PRESUME the how and when.
3. Re: Acts 1, the "like manner" refers to how Jesus will return; which is on clouds. Again, you have to PRESUME something that is not stated. In any case, there is no "pretrib" anything in Acts 1.
4. Regarding the "while horses" at the "rapture". Again, the Bible says NOTHING about a fanciful glorified trip to heaven, so the word is moot. your "demand" that EVERY verse regarding the resurrection/gathering MUST INCLUDE every detail is ludicrous.
5. Jesus didn't "frame" His coming "as before the flood". What He did was note that the people of Noah's day didn't know the flood was coming and when Jesus comes back at the Second Advent, again, people will not know He is coming.
6. Are you actually suggesting that the 11 disciples are STILL not in heaven?? They all died over 2,000 years ago. They ARE there now and they ARE drinking of the cup NOW.
7. Believers who "are alive and remain" when Jesus comes back will NOT ever enter heaven, because just after the resurrection of all believers (1 Cor 15:23) they will all serve/reign with Him in the Millennial kingdom. Rev 20:4,5 Furthermore, heaven is FILLED with the souls of believers who have died from Adam forward. Or where do you think their souls are?
8. No, we the bride "has made herself ready". And a woman who is getting ready for the wedding IS called a bride. So your point fails.
9. whine, whine, whine.

Not any of your points are valid.

I love the reframe jobs on " like manner" and the virgin parable.

They claim rev 19 war army in power, on horses containg a now married wife killing the enemy with a sword proceeding from his mouth , is EXACTLY the same as a solo Jesus in peace and intimacy, in a confined audience, no horses, no battle, no sword proceeding from his mouth killing the enemy,.

And when pressed....lol....they say " wait it is the exact same because there is a cloud in both dynamics
Oh man...HILARIOUS!!!!


I LOVE IT!!!!
So busted
SMH

Some postribber said "Dont you know that the last harvest in rev 14 is to destruction?"
Then they draw some bizaree weird conclusion...lol
" so that means any time something is harvested with a sickle, it is a bad and bloody dynamic"

HILARIOUS.....
All wheat and barley are harvested via a sickle.

SMH
What a perverted ridiculous mess postribbers are tied into.

Thread Topic -----
One taken,one left. The rapture.


1 Thessalonians 1:7-10 NIV

Thanksgiving for the Thessalonians’ Faith

7 And so you became a model to all the believers in Macedonia and Achaia. 8 The Lord’s message rang out from you not only in Macedonia and Achaia—your faith in God has become known everywhere. Therefore we do not need to say anything about it, 9 for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God,
10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

I say
So what is the coming wrath that Believer will be rescued from ----

This is from Strong's concordance
Thessalonians 1:10; ἡμέρα ὀργῆς, the day on which the wrath of God will be made manifest in the punishment of the wicked ---

I say --this seems to say that believes will be rescued from the the coming end times ---?????

Romans 5 verse 9 -----
9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!
10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.


I say ---again this seems to indicate we will be saved from God's wrath ----so if we are saved from God's wrath ---why would we be going through the Tribulation ------which would be going against what God says in these scriptures -----



1 Thessalonians 5 NIV
The Day of the Lord

8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet.

9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.


I say ----so again we see God did not appoint believers to suffer wrath ------ sin't going through the tribulation suffering God's wrath -----so if believers are left here then God is a liar and so is His Word ---

Symbolically ------Noah who was Righteous was saved from God's Flood wrath which came upon the whole earth ------

2 Peter 2:5
5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;

I say ---so we see here the flood was for the ungodly ---not the righteous ------

So we see here in the same Scripture 2 Peter 2:6-7-8-9 ----

God Rescued lot who was a righteous man out of his Danger -------and NOTE verse 9---again we see the Righteous being taken out of Danger -----the danger is for the ungodly -----

6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless

8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)—

9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.


I say ------So it seems to me that God is the same today as He was and would not want His righteous going through His wrath that He is bringing on the whole Word -----He will rescue His righteous out from experiencing His Wrath ----as scriptures above say ------

His Wrath will be directed to the ungodly as it always has been -----all believers will be raptured before His Wrath is unleashed -----

Yes, you sure do try very hard in your reframe jobs.

Absolutely said:
Then all wheat harvest as well as barley is bad, bloody, and to destruction, since it is harvested via a sickle.

Think before you dive into the empty pool

SMH.
Still talking to yourself, I see.

You mean the LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS of blood in Rev 14? So it's not destruction then?

So, if all that blood isn't about destruction, then relating all that blood to anything else would a very bizarre conclusion.

Speaking of a perverted ridiculous mess, that would be claiming what the Bible says NOTHING ABOUT.

There will be NO GLORIFIED TRIP TO HEAVEN. Ever.

If there would be, the Bible would say so.

Why would the Bible leave out (omit) such a thrilling trip if there will be one?

Of course, you have no asnwer for these thought-provoking questions.

Hello Dear Spirit Filled Sister in Christ,

Yes, That came from my heart for all to enjoy and be blessed with.

Feel free to share it.

Thank You for helping the new member Erasmus - '100 Questions for Lutherans'

Consider:

Revelation 14:

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

In this discussion, I will refer to the 'event' described in verses 14-16 as the 'first' gathering/reaping and the 'event' described in verses 17-20 as the 'second' gathering/reaping.

In each scenario, the 'event' is 'performed' with a sickle. This only has meaning within the context of this passage. It has no particular or specific meaning elsewhere in scripture.

Remember that this is a vision.

The use of the sickle [itself] in each scenario is all/only about gathering/reaping - it has no association with blood, death, etc.

The only association with blood, death, etc. is with the winepress in the second event.

It is quite clear in the description of the first event that it is Jesus upon the cloud doing the gathering/reaping.

He is not killing anyone. He is only gathering/reaping.

After the first event gathering/reaping is accomplished - some have been "removed" from [off] the earth - and, the second event gathering/reaping is then performed on some-or-all of those who remain.

The second group is being 'slaughtered' - in the 'winepress' of the Wrath of God.

Both events together represent the 'rapture' followed by the 'Wrath of God' being "poured out" on the earth.

Yes
"""10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."""
Good find.

Interpret the 10 virgin parable and lets see what happens.

I will wait.

Lol
Your perversion of rev 14 includes the notion that a " sickle" is a bloody instrument.
That is how far you have fallen.
You think the harvest of the Jews in rev 14:14 is some bloody harvest to destruction.

That is sick, and how far you are fallen.

I understand that many people associate the verses the OP refers to as being part of the "rapture".

But honestly it's an Old Testament reference to not knowing who was going to die next.
It's about a horrible period of time of violence and oppression.

Like the residents of Ukraine right now. Nobody knows if they will live another day or not. Destruction and explosions are rampant and ongoing. Buildings demolished for no rhyme or reason. Missiles can hit their apartments or homes at any moment...

There's a reason there's a lot of refugees....and even the refugees face more unspeakable horrors of being robbed or murdered for their possessions... because they all leave with what little money or valuables they have. So they become targets for thieves... because these refugees are not citizens or have access to police the same way as citizens do.

So...it's not a pleasant thing. It's a time of terror and unending fear for life.

And that's what happened to Jerusalem and Israel during the Roman Occupation in 66 AD. Many people were slaughtered. Just like the Jews faced during the rise of the Nazis during WWII. Or even the UK during the bombing of WWII. You never knew if a bomb was going to hit your home or not. The whole world was at war.

We may yet face this

FreeGrace2 said:
No rapture in that chapter.

v.14 - I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.

Silly boy. All references to "sharp sickle" in ch 14 result in LOADS AND LOADS AND LOADS OF BLOOD.
I stand by my words.

FreeGrace2 said:
Yes, you sure do try very hard in your reframe jobs.
you don't need to wait.

v.1 - “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

So we know that Jesus was describing believers only. Where do unbelievers fit into "the kingdom of heaven"? Nowhere is where.

Given that beginning, it isn't difficult to understand what Jesus was teaching.

We have 5 alert and prepared believers, and 5 stupid and unprepared believers. v.2 - Five of them were foolish and five were wise. v.3 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. The 5 alert believers prepared. v.4 - The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps.

Then we have the Bridegroom coming. Being alert and prepared means believers who stayed faithful and are allowed into the wedding banquet. We see the same principle in Matt 22 and the wedding banquet.

The 5 stupid and unprepared believers are those who lived for themselves, not concerned about kingdom things, and were not allowed into the banquet hall. Just like the "friend" in Matt 22 who was unprepared.

So this parable isn't about a "rapture", it's about being prepared in order to be rewarded for faithfulness.

Easy peasy.

So you are ignorant of the fact that sharp sickles can't draw blood?? The whole text says exactly that. Are you having trouble reading?

Where do you get that this harvest is "of the Jews".

v.14 - I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.

Nope. No Jews here. And, btw, this is the title of the text from v.14-20 (end of chapter)
Harvesting the Earth and Trampling the Winepress

So, let's look a bit farther.

15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.”
16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

Nope. Still no Jews. But the EARTH is harvested with this sharp sickle.

17 Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle.
18 Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.”

Nope. No Jews here either. But we do see more harvesting "from the EARTH'S vine". Again, the EARTH is being harvested.

19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath.
20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.

OK, end of the chapter. And NO JEWS mentioned at all. So you just make up stuff, huh?

Rather, the sharp sickles harvest the EARTH for God's winepress of WRATH.

But you just don't want to get it, apparently. Even though it is as plain as day.

You are the one who twists and perverts Scripture and makes up unbiblical stuff to push your own agenda.

There is NO WAY to get to your conclusion from the text. So you make up stuff from your head.

Context.
The setting is peacetime with commerce.
The very next sentencse is " watch and be ready"

Depicting a prewrath gathering.
The pretrib rapture vividly portrayed

Have you never read Matthew 13:24-30 the parable of the wheat and the tears? The Jesus Himself gives you the explanation in verses 37-43. He says in verse 24 the kingdom is like a man (only one man Jesus) sowed good seed in his field. Verse 25 says the men slept: the watchman fell asleep and his (the owner) enemy came right on in and sowed his own bad seed among the mans good seed. The watchman are to stand grad and sound the alarm when they see the enemy not be at sleep. Verse 26. When the field brought forth its fruit some was good(wheat) and some was bad(tares). Verse 27. One of the sleepy watchman came and accused the man of sowing bad seed in the field. Look we have tears of there in the field. How did that happen? 28. "my version O you lazy and wicked servant this happened because you went to sleep on your watch and allowed this to happen." The servant reply's do you want us to pull them up? Verse 29. No leave both to grow I don't want you to mistake the wheat for the tares or the other way around. Verse 30. No leave them till the harvest and I will have the reapers (notice not the servants but others the reapers) Gather first the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them. Then we will gather the wheat into MY (not anybody else's) barns. I am posting this then we will go into the explanition.