Who Justifieth the Ungodly

Post #1,068 maybe you can understand that?

Let me try this again:

Read Ephesians 2:3 again, it says nothing about the elect being under God's wrath. Also Rom 4:5 plainly stated that God justified the ungodly, and that is what faith is given to believe.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
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read, understood, responded to here and here
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Those Jesus Christ died for are by his death alone, which is also called his obedience Rom 5:19, doeth make or declare them Righteous/Justified before God Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous !

For one cannot be made or declared righteous without being Justified, for what is Justification but to be declared righteous. That is stated in Vs 18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

That word justification dikaiōsis:

I.
the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him

II.
abjuring to be righteous, justification Its the same word for Righteous in Vs 19 !

Now it is not their faith that makes any of this true before God, neither does faith cause the existence of ones Justification before God [excepts for Christ's faithful obedience] for it has been beforehand, but Christ by His Spirit and Gospel does make it known to us Our Righteousness and Justification, along with our forgiveness of sins, hence they were Justified by Christ before they come to believe it, hence faith is the means of how we receive the knowledge of our Justification as stated Lk 1:77

77 To give knowledge of salvation/Justification unto his people by the remission of their sins,

and from this comes comfort and conscience Peace through believing. Rom 15:13

Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

All for whom He died equates to the Elect or Sheep. And you have been shown the gracious consequences His death produced before God.

So what did you understand me showing from scripture in that post ?

Eph 2:3 has been read in its context, how else can you read it ? Now does it say anything about being UNDER GODS WRATH ?

Justified solely by His Death !

That those Christ died for are Justified solely by His death, apart from any obedience from them He died for, is a Truth taught in scripture and is part of the Gospel of God which Paul Preached Rom 1:1. One such scripture is Rom 5:19, this verse teaches that by the obedience of ONE, that One being Jesus Christ, That Obedience being His Death Phil 2:8;Heb 2:9, that many shall be made Righteous [ That's Saved] Now what is Plainer than that ? To be declared Righteous is Justification and it is Salvation which is effected solely by Christ's Obedience which is His Death.

Now the OT counterpart of the same Gospel Truth is here Isa 53:11

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

They are being Justified or accounted Righteous here as a result of His Knowledge and Bearing their sins, which is the same as His Obedience of One in Rom 5:19b

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Now some will say that it says in Isa 53:11, by His Knowledge shall my Righteous Servant Justify many, but that matters not, nor does it detract from the plain stated truth, for its not by the sinners knowledge that He shall Justify many, but by His Own Knowledge He shall do it. Now since this verse is the OT counterpart to Rom 5:19, His Knowledge in Isa 53:11 is His experiential knowledge in that by the things He suffered, He Learned Obedience Heb 5:8

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

The word learned here is the greek word manthanō:

I.to learn, be apprised
A.
to increase one's knowledge, to be increased in knowledge

B.
to hear, be informed

C.
to learn by use and practice
i.
to be in the habit of, accustomed to

Also the word for obedience here in Heb 5:8 is the same one in Rom 5:19.

What He learned was Knowledge. His being acquainted with grief was learned knowledge as Per Isa 53:3

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

The word acquainted, the Hebrew yada is the root word for Knowledge in Isa 53:11 and it does mean to know by experience.

Now all this goes to show the Gospel Truth, that by His Death alone, all those He died for are accounted Righteous before God's Law and Justice, BEFORE THEY BELIEVE ! In fact before they are born sinners. To deny this is to deny the Gospel of God, it deny's the Death of Christ, which leaves one without any other hope of Salvation !

Justification without Faith !

Ones Justification before God, if indeed Christ died for them, does not depend on their believing it, apprehending it by Faith, nor receiving it by Faith, in fact they do not even have to know about it at all, and in fact they don't until its revealed to them. The Only thing their Justification before God depended on was this Isa 53:11

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

His Knowledge of them, which is foreknowledge and His Suffering Obedience, and He bearing their iniquities, and that's it. By those Two Things they are Justified before God, or as the ESV reads:


Because of that, their Justification, their being declared Righteous is a done deal eternally. Now, in God's Time, those that its a done deal for, shall have it made known to them by the Gospel, theen they shall apprehend that fact by Faith Heb 11:1

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Rom 5:1

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

That's what True Justification by Faith means, that ones already done and accomplished Eternal Justification by Christ's Obedience for them, is revealed to them in the Gospel. Rom 1:16-17 !

However they were still eternally Justified before they apprehended it by God given Faith. 8

To say a person is Justified before God by their believing, or because of their believing, is a flat out denial that one is Justified by Christ; For there is a difference in what Christ did, and what the person does; Now if we acknowledge that our believing was a assent to the Truth of our Justification before God being already a accomplished fact and a done deal solely by Christ's Blood As Per Rom 5:9, then believing is just a good work and evidence of our Justification before God. For it is written Heb 11:1

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Justification before God is the thing not seen by the physical Eye, but it must exist before Faith is the Evidence of it !

Ones now having evidence of it , is not what caused it to exist before God as a fact, prior to receiving evidence of it.

The Purification of sin is Justification from it !

Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

The guilt of sin is removed by Justification, because its the declaring of one Not Guilty. When Jesus Christ sat down at the Right Hand of the Majesty on High, it was after completing for those He died , the purging or purification of their sins. This word purged is the greek word katharismos and means:

cleansing, purification, a ritual purgation or washing
A.
of the washing of the Jews before and after their meals

B.
of Levitical purification of women after childbirth

C.
a cleansing from the guilt of sins wrought by the expiatory sacrifice of Christ


Its a cleansing from the Guilt [before God's Law and Justice] of our sins, by the Sacrifice of Himself on our behalf, if He died for us.

And this means that those He did die for have no guilt of sin before God's Eye of Justice, they are without sin's guilt before Him, and therefore they are faultless, unblameable before Him , Yes Justified. That's why it says this Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.

When He was Raised, it was living proof that Purification of our sins before God's Law and Justice, the guilt removed for them, was successful, and consequently they are Justified from the penalty and guilt of them.

This is not accomplished by their believing, but by what Christ did, and then rested from.

Those Christ died for are born into this world as depraved sinners, ungodly as can be, yet, because of Christ's Purging their sins and now sitting down next to the Majesty on High, They are Justified, and Unblameable before God. Now I know the religionist cannot receive this Good News, But God's Elect shall receive it by God Given Faith from the New Birth !

More on Remission of sins and Justification !

Lk 24:47

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Jesus says that in His Name, Repentance and Remission of sins should be preached to all nations.

This is because there are men and women in all nations for whom Christ secured for them that great blessing. How did He do that ? Matt 26:28

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


Its because His Blood was shed for them, and through that Blood, the Blood of the New Covenant, they have Remission of sins.

Now what does this mean ? The word remission is the greek word aphesis and means:


I. release from bondage or imprisonment

II. forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty

As you can see it means forgiveness or pardon of sins. Its translated forgiveness 6 times in the NT to include here Eph 1:7


In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

That redemption through His Blood points back to Matt 26:28, the Blood of the New Covenant or Testament for many !

Now this Remission of sins here by the blood of Christ is first and foremost to be considered judicially or it is a Judicial or Legal act of God, an acquittal before the Court of God's Law and Justice . It means a setting free from the charge of an offense by verdict, sentence, or other legal process

Also the persons so acquitted are to be announced Vindicated or Justified ! Their persons are declared Justified, their sins forgiven, and acquitted from all charges Rom 8:33

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

The clear implication is that God has acquitted them, who else can lay any charge against them, because God has Acquitted or Justified them !

God has acquitted and Vindicated from all condemnation, and guilt all for whom Christ has died Rom 8:34

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

His dying being also the shedding of His Blood Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

This Blood has made in the Sight of God for them[The Many] a plenteous Satisfaction to His Law and Justice !

And Christ did it for them in His Name, because He did it as their Surety Representative, all He Suffered of the Law and Justice of God, was on their behalf and in their place !

So this Remission of sins has legally, and judicially been laid to their account, even when they themselves know nothing of it, and even while they are dead in trespasses and sins, and unbelief !

Isa 53:11 " Shall Justify Many"

Isa 53:11

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

NT counterpart Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The Isa 53:11 also reads as:

11 He shall see [the fruit] of the travail of His soul and be satisfied; by His knowledge of Himself [which He possesses and imparts to others] shall My [uncompromisingly] righteous One, My Servant, justify many and make many righteous (upright and in right standing with God), for He shall bear their iniquities and their guilt [with the consequences, says the Lord].AMP


Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities. ESV

Now it appears from this scripture Isa 53:11 that all for whom Christ died, which is to bear their iniquities, resulted in them being Justified or accounted Righteous.

However, punishment of sin in and of itself makes no one Righteous, yet it does pay their sin debt to God's Justice, but in order to be declared Righteous as well, God must indeed view us as Righteous, hence we conclude that all for whom He died also had Christ's Righteousness Imputed to them, charged to them, that is His Active Obedience to all of God's Commandments, His Holy Law in Mind, Heart, Soul and Strength !

Justification an act of God's Grace !

Justification an act of God's Grace Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

in that He Remits or does not impute the sins of the elect, the Church, His Sheep upon them and accepts them as Righteous :


Not in themselves are they considered Righteous, but in His Sight by Redemption through Christ and Imputed Righteousness, which however in time will be received by them by God given Faith from New Birth.

This Justification is Threefold, #1 Its in Eternity or from Eternity, in that Christ before the world began, was made a Surety for all those Chosen in Him, His Seed, He therefore by Surety pledge took their trespasses [to be committed in time] upon Himself.

The Surety principle is here stated Prov 6:1

My son, if thou be surety for thy friend, if thou hast stricken thy hand with a stranger,

Christ in this case engaged Himself before the foundation, to pay the debt incurred by His Friends unto God's Law and Justice. Heb 7:22

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

We believe that this Testament is the one stated here Heb 13:20

20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant or testament,

We believe its mentioned here by the Apostle Paul 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

The first occurrence of this non imputation was in Christ's Eternal Suretyship in the Everlasting Covenant , where He pledged to shed His Blood for their law violations !

This was an Eternal Pledge with the Father, by which He did transfer the trespasses of His Own Elect from them to His Son, and Hence the Father did reckon the sins of His Chosen upon His Son from Eternity, and by this Eternal act, their sins against His Law were Eternally discharged against them, but not from their Surety. They the Elect Sons of God were His [ Christ their Surety] delight before the World was Created Prov 8:31

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

According to this Suretyship of the blood of the Everlasting Covenant, Christ was the Lamb slain from the foundation, yes even foreordained, this being reckoned upon in the Eternal Divine Counsels. The Father was always well pleased with His Son, even before the Cross occurred in time, and so even the OT Church of believers were Justified by it [His Blood] even before it was actually shed in time See Heb 7:22; Isa 53:6; 2 Cor 5:21 ; Eph 1:4; 2 Tim 1:9; Rev 13:8; 1 Pet 1:20 !

Justification an act of God's Grace ! 2


#2 Those whom Christ was made sin for, by imputation, having their sins charged to Him as their Surety, they as He was for them, Justified at His Resurrection, or we can say at their Resurrection with Him ! This is True because of the testimony Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.

Folks this scripture alone should silence all opposers to the Truth of Justification before God of those Christ died for before Faith ! The testimony of the Truth is right here !

When Jesus Christ was vindicated by the Resurrection from the dead, it was not as a private person for himself, but for those whose offences he was delivered for , those of His Body the Church See Eph 5:25 !

Paul goes into some detail about this relationship in Rom 5:12ff, and then he writes in Rom 6:4

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

That's because they were also raised up together with Him by the Glory of the Father by Union with Him, so again Christ was not raised up as an private individual, but as a federal head representative, OT Prophecy predicted this Union of Christ and His members in Union at His Resurrection Isa 26:19

Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Now just as Christ was delivered up for their offences, and not his personally, so likewise, His resurrection from the dead as proof of His being Justified, was not for His own personal Justification, but of those whom's offences He was delivered for !

Again, this condemns all who teach that man must exercise faith in Christ to be Justified from all sin before God's Law and Justice, for that is just not so , and it detracts from the death of Christ's accomplishment and calls the Resurrection of Him a Lie !

Justification an act of God's Grace ! 3

#3 Now those who are Justified by Christ's death, verified by His resurrection from the dead Rom 4:25,

They have at least one more Justification to experience , that is in their consciousness, that verdict must be passed in their persons, this is done in the New Birth and the Spirit's witness, and hence by Faith we receive the witness of the Spirit in our consciousness Rom 8:16

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

That means Faith has been given for this witness to be carried out Gal 3:26

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

By this they are enabled to receive the Joy and Peace of Believing Rom 15:13

Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

That's because the Power of the Spirit produces the Faith, in fact Faith is a fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

God given Faith is instrumental in conveyance of the Spiritual Knowledge of Justification in our hearts and minds , but never is it the cause of our Justification before God !

The Justifier of him that believth on Jesus !

Rom 3:26

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

That He might be Just and the Justifier of him which is believing on Jesus !

Now one of the meanings of this verse is that all who come to be believers in Jesus, its because God's Law and Justice has been satisfied for them by Jesus, that one who came to save His People from their sins Matt 1:21; and so they become believers because what Christ did for them is made known to them by the Spirit, for the Spirit takes what is Christ's accomplishment for them, and shows it to them Jn 16:14

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.[The Church]

Since Christ has died for them, and satisified God's Law and Justice, paid their sin debt in full, they are given the right and privilege of believing on Him Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

And of course those who do not believe on Jesus for Salvation, its simply because they were not of His Sheep which He died for Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Non sheep do not have that privilege given to them Matt 13:11

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Once again, those for whom Christ died, He for them only satisfied God's Law and Justice in His Sufferings and Death , which all the wrath due to their sins, and also fulfilling its Righteousness, so Faith is given to them through the Righteousness of God and their Saviour Jesus Christ 2 Pet 1:1

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

All who come to believe on Jesus was because they were Justified before God by His Death and Imputed Righteousness !

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.




Let's look at Romans 5:18:

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Romans 5:18 reiterates what we see in 2 Corinthians 5:19, John 1:29, John 3:16-17, 1 John 2:2.

John 3:16-17 clearly tells us whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

brightfame52 said:

it is not their faith that makes any of this true before God, neither does faith cause the existence of ones Justification before God

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Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it [Abraham's faith] was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

vs 24 - righteousness is imputed when a person believes on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead ... not before.

vs 1 - therefore being justified by faith ... the text does not read "therefore being justified before faith".

brightfame52 said:

faith is the means of how we receive the knowledge of our Justification as stated in Luke 1:77

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Let's just take a look at the context within which Luke 1:77 sits so we can determine if Luke 1:77 states that "faith is the means of how we receive the knowledge of our Justification":

Luke 1:67-79 reveals prophetic words spoken by Zacharias concerning his son, John Baptist:

Luke 1:

67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

76 And thou, child, [John Baptist] shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;

77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,

79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.


Luke 1:76-77 states that John Baptist would go before the Lord to prepare His way and John Baptist would give knowledge of salvation to people.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!


Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive
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