Doctrine of Unconditional Election

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Avery

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rogerg said:
No one can spiritually see or believe unless it is given to them
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Well actually God gives people over to their sin when they refuse Him.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,7 in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
Romans 1

Choice.
 
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rogerg

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Everlasting-Grace said:
thats not what romans 1 says
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Perceiving the external worldly creation by the godhead and knowing that it was by God, is not synonymous with having spiritual eyes that see, ears that hear, to perceive God's salvation. The righteousness of God is revealed to man only through the giving of Christ's faith to those of the elect to whom it was intended and who have become born-again.

Everlasting-Grace said:
Why do you pull verses out of context?

38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

See how the word belief is required..
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Spiritual sight and belief are by the fruit of the Spirit and are given upon becoming born-again. Those who see and believe, are those whom the Father had given to the Son. Spiritual sight and belief are gifts.
I thought that should be obvious to anyone who can comprehend and connect three verses in a row.

Everlasting-Grace said:
john 3: 16 for god so loved the world. Not the elect

World in the greek is cosmos. Elect in the greek is eklektos.

So on no case (the english or the greek) did Jesus say he died just for the elect.
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[/QUOTE]

He so loved the world that is to come, not this world. The elect will inhabit the world to come as their eternal abode.
This world is to be destroyed by God so how then could He love it? Unless
you are saying that God can't save that which He want to destroy or can't destroy that which He wants to save?
So, according to your definition of "world", which is it: to save it or to destroy it? Both can't be true if only one world is
in the subject.

A hint: if the Father warns us not to love this world, chances are high that He doesn't love it either.

[1Jo 2:15 KJV] 15 Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
 
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rogerg

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Everlasting-Grace said:
You did not answer me about romans 1. Romans 1 says we DO know about God and about our condemnation.

God did not hide it from us, We hide it from ourselves..

Thats why we have no excuse.
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See post #2856 re Romans 1. I agree they/we have no excuse. Did I say otherwise?
 
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rogerg

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Avery said:
Well actually God gives people over to their sin when they refuse Him.
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We all are born refusing Him from the first instant of life. We are all considered wicked by God until saved

[Psa 58:2-3 KJV]
2 Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Avery said:
Choice.
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No choice - born into it. See the above.
 
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rogerg

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Avery said:
The above quote is without comprehension of the word mercy. Mercy is given to those who accept it by faith. The view of this other poster seems to be that mercy is forced on you or it is not mercy. Going out on a limb here and sawing it off the tree while sitting behind the action of the saw is not an acceptable argument :unsure:
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Did Saul ask for mercy? Nope.

[1Ti 1:13 KJV] 13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief.
 
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rogerg

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Everlasting-Grace said:
this is really going deep to try to refuse to see a truth.

If they say no, they get what we all deserve.. God offered them mercy, THEY chose to reject it.

Romans 1 would do you well to study
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God gives it to whomever He chose to give it to. Receiving it has nothing to do with our acceptance of it.

[Rom 9:16 KJV] 16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
 
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rogerg

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peldom10 said:
You have no scripture for that..so where did you get the thinking from?
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From these verses perhaps?

[Rom 9:22-23 KJV]
22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
 
eXric

eXric

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brightfame52 said:
Its crystal clear that the scriptures teach election, even unconditional election in salvation. Most people will agree that election is taught in scripture, but very few agree that its unconditional, and totally by grace and Gods sovereign good pleasure, not outside of Himself. Even the OT scripture indicates Gods sovereign prerogative in election and having mercy on whomever He will Ex 33:19

And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. In this discriminatory fashion God exhibits His Glory

Now Paul alludes to this scripture in his treatise on unconditional election in Rom 9:11-16

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

We learn that there is what Paul terms "the purpose of God according to election" This is a salvaic purpose,. its answering the seeming dilema as to why so many jews in national israel are being lost Rom 9:1-6

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,​
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2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.​
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3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:​
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4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;​
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5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.​
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6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:​
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Its from this background that Paul develops his treatise on the doctirne of unconditional election, or "the purpose of God according to election"

Now let us look at what Rom 9 tells us: By writer of godsonlygospel.com "election is just not fair.

Speaking of Jacob and Esau, the sons of Isaac and Rebecca, Paul the apostle states: "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, THAT THE PURPOSE OF GOD ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND, not of works but of Him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Rom. 9:11-13). What a passage to confound the free willer! No wonder the Arminian minister prefers to conveniently shy away from this chapter in Romans and hide these things from his listeners. These verses show clearly that God made choice between Jacob and Esau before they were even born! God made choice between them as to which He would love and which He would hate. This was done, the Scriptures say, so that the purpose of God according to election might stand, an election which obviously could not have been based on any deeds, actual or foreseen, good or bad, that man had done or would do. The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, not by anything they have done, that none should boast. The good works they do were appointed, or prepared, for them to do and they were not elected because of any good works they were foreseen would do:​
I do differ with the author regarding his statement "The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, "

I believe the saved are those who are elected by Grace, minus the faith, but Faith being the consequent of election by grace.

However the main point is, the elect are not elected based upon any foreseen actions or deeds , good or bad, that man has done or will do, because the election of grace was made before they were born to do any actions whatsoever, thats the Apostles point.

This treatise by Paul should forever eliminate the false idea that election is based upon anything foreseen in or of the sinner. Its totally unconditional ! Its totally of Sovereign prerogative !
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Is this that Calvinist type theologue?
 
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peldom10

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rogerg said:
From these verses perhaps?

[Rom 9:22-23 KJV]
22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
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Doesn't fit.
That is generic...does not apply to any .....select ....group as you maintained.
 
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Everlasting-Grace

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rogerg said:
Perceiving the external worldly creation by the godhead and knowing that it was by God, is not synonymous with having spiritual eyes that see, ears that hear, to perceive God's salvation. The righteousness of God is revealed to man only through the giving of Christ's faith to those of the elect to whom it was intended and who have become born-again.
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So I can know I am guilty
I can know there is a God,
I can know that God is a God who judges.

But I can;t know God came to save me from my guilt.

sorry man, Not buying it..Thats like saying a man who is drowning in the middle of an ocean in raging storm can not see someone who comes to rescue him..

Spiritual sight and belief are by the fruit of the Spirit and are given upon becoming born-again. Those who see and believe, are those whom the Father had given to the Son. Spiritual sight and belief are gifts.
I thought that should be obvious to anyone who can comprehend and connect three verses in a row.
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You can't be born again while you are still guilty of sin. The penalty of sin is death. You can't be made alive while still unjustified. Justification MUST come first.

The fruit of the spirit are given to those born again, your right. But you do not need that to say yes to the rescuer who came to rescue you

And please. lets back off the tone. What you think is obvious has no bearing on our discussion or the truth


He so loved the world that is to come, not this world. The elect will inhabit the world to come as their eternal abode.
This world is to be destroyed by God so how then could He love it? Unless
you are saying that God can't save that which He want to destroy or can't destroy that which He wants to save?
So, according to your definition of "world", which is it: to save it or to destroy it? Both can't be true if only one world is
in the subject.

A hint: if the Father warns us not to love this world, chances are high that He doesn't love it either.

[1Jo 2:15 KJV] 15 Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
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He loved the world he came to. He died for that world. As jesus said, He came to save that which was lost.. Well the whole world is lost.

And the elect will inhabit the world after this world is destroyed. there will still be people who are unsaved in the end. We know this because when Satan is released he quickly gathers an army of non believers that Christ once again has to snuff out.
 
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Everlasting-Grace

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rogerg said:
I don't understand what you're talking about. Please quote the verse you have in mind
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now this is worrysome. You do not know the tax collector who got on his knees unable to even look up, and cried out for Gods mercy as apposed to the pharisee who pumped his chest?

The one Jesus said went home justified.

Again, what did he do to earn salvation?
 
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Everlasting-Grace

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rogerg said:
God gives it to whomever He chose to give it to. Receiving it has nothing to do with our acceptance of it.

[Rom 9:16 KJV] 16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
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you take romans 9 out of context. Roman 9 quotes an OT passage in which God tells Israel he has the right if the lump defiles itself to remake the clay.

Which is exactly what God is doing today..

Rom 11: 11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

This is how paul ends his 3 chapter side step in romans, That in the end no matter what Isreal did. it all was part of his purpose. And in the end, Israel will be exactly where God promised them.. Because his gifts are irrevocable.

Romans 9 - 11 is about Gods chosing of Israel. Not the salvation or condemnation of two babies before they were born.
 
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