Doctrine of Unconditional Election

You are again hiding the fact.

The passage in question is God in the OT saying he has the right to take the lump and remake it. Speaking of Israel.
It has NOTHING to do with the salvation of any person. and NOTHING to do with any gentile person or nation

YOU CAN"T CONTRIBUTE TO SALVATION!!!!!

Once again, I understand why these discussions get so heated. When you make statements like this. It ANGERS PEOPLE who are not doing what you are claiming they are doing.

It is a strawman argument man, Its not facts.

No strawman. Do you believe that faith is from oneself or is as a gift of God? There is a big, big, difference between the two

Still God created the non elect to suffer His eternal vengeance for their sins, and He created the elect to experience His Rich Mercy for their sins.

You know many are deceived and believe that.

Its a statement.

I am sick of this nonsense.

Faith is a gift of God..

You answer me how the tax collector earned his salvation by humbling himself and calling out..

so we are decieved for believing what the word says??

LOL Do you actually think you intimidate me with your demands?

Tell me exactly which verses you're talking about and I'll reply, I've told you that two times already.,

One lump represents the elect, the other the non-elect. As I told you before, the Bible uses events in the OT to demonstrate
spiritual doctrine set-forth in the NT. Both lumps are symbolic of people God has chosen as different to group for different ends. Got it?

The chosen people in the OT are the Jews.

Which fact is that? Share it with us because I don't know what it is?

BTW If you continue being rude our discussion will end post haste.

Challenge to those who hold to the Calvinist doctrine of unconditional election:

Please provide the best (most clear) verse that indicates that God chooses/elects to salvation.

In the meantime, here are verses that clearly indicate the purpose for God's election/choosing.

Elected to Serve

Jesus is described as The Elect (Chosen) One

Isa 42:1 - “Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.

Isa 43:10 - “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.

Luke 9:35 - A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.”

Luke 23:35 - The people stood watching, and the rulers even sneered at him. They said, “He saved others; let him save himself if he is God’s Messiah, the Chosen One.”

1 Pet 2:6 - For in Scripture it says: “See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

Now, consider what Jesus Christ was chosen for:

Matt 20:28 - just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Mark 10:45 - For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Luke 22:27 - For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves.

Romans 15:8 - For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs

So, the Bible plainly states that Jesus Christ is God’s Chosen One, and that He came to serve.

In the same way, the Bible tells us what believers are chosen for:

Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” John 6:70,71

So, just as Jesus Christ was chosen to serve the Father’s purpose, so also believers are chosen for service to God as well. Even unbelievers can be elected/chosen for service. See John 6:70,71 regarding Judas Iscariot.

Paul was elected to service:

Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.

Acts 20:24 - However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me - the task of testifying to the gospel of God’s grace.

Acts 22:10 - "'What shall I do, Lord?' I asked. "'Get up,' the Lord said, 'and go into Damascus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.’

Acts 22:14, 15 - 14 “Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard.

Acts 26:16 - ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me.

Acts 27:23 - Last night an angel of the God whose I am and whom I serve stood beside me

Rom 1:9 - God, whom I serve with my whole heart in preaching the gospel of His Son, is my witness how constantly I remember you in my prayers at all times; and I pray that now at last nay God’s will the way may be opened for me to come to you.

Rom 15:17 - Therefore I glory in Christ Jesus in my service to God.

Rom 15:25 - Now, however, I am on my way to Jerusalem in the service of the Lord’s people there.

1 Cor 3:5 - What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task.

1 Cor 4:1 - This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed.

2 Cor 4:5 - For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake.

2 Cor 11:8 - I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you.

Gal 1:10 - A I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Gal 1:16 - to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man

Eph 3:7,8,9 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of His power 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.

Col 1:25 - I have become its (the Church) servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— direct reference to Acts 9:15. Also v.23

1 Tim 1:12 - I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me trustworthy, appointing me to his service.

1 Tim 2:7 - And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

2 Tim 1:9 - He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

2 Tim 1:11 - And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher.

To be continued.....

But not all OT Jews -- only through Jacob. In the NT, we are told the elect are the new, true Jews.

Election verses and its purpose:

IV Angels were elected to service:
1 Tim 5:21 - I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.

Heb 1:7 - In speaking of the angels he says, “He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire.”

Heb 1:14 - Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

Rev 19:10 - At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”

Rev 22:8,9 8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”

Election of Israel: Amos 3:2 "You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth; Therefore, I will punish you for all your iniquities."
Deut 7:6 "For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
Luke 11:54 “He has helped his servant Israel, remembering to be merciful”

Jewish Nation was chosen for service

Isa 41:9 - I took you from the ends of the earth, from its farthest corners I called you. I said, ‘You are my servant’; I have chosen you and have not rejected you.

Isa 43:10 - “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.

Isa 43;20,21 20 The wild animals honor me, the jackals and the owls, because I provide water in the wilderness and streams in the wasteland, to give drink to my people, my chosen, 21 the people I formed for myself that they may proclaim my praise.

Isa 44:2 - This is what the LORD says— he who made you, who formed you in the womb, and who will help you: Do not be afraid, Jacob, my servant, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen.

Isa 45:4 - For the sake of Jacob my servant, of Israel my chosen, I summon you by name and bestow on you a title of honor, though you do not acknowledge me.

Isa 49:3 - He said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will display my splendor.”


None of these examples of election were for salvation. All of them are for service.

Actually people are deceived thinking they believe what the word says.

That never stopped no one from being deceived.

Hey bf52, check out posts 2914 and 2916.

The verses are very clear.

What I find interesting, is not your denials as much as the fact I have never seen a Calvinist use the scriptures you are using. The wicked mean simply that. The wicked. These verses have less than nothing to do with the doctrine you are trying to express. In fact, your particular doctrine is off track for Calvinism.

None of us have a choice in our birth so what is your point? We are all sinful humans until we accept Christ as our Savior.

Saul/Paul states he obtained mercy because he was in ignorance of Christ. With this verse, it seems you are trying to say that he had no choice in his salvation. There are many examples of those particularly chosen by God for service in scripture. This does not underscore your particular leanings. I have looked at both sides of the equation. I do not see anywhere that you are able to look at scripture that is in disagreement with what you say. There are many scriptures that do not equal the word chosen with others deliberately being unchosen or left out on purpose by God.

The other thing is that you also do not seem to want to discuss any scriptures presented that disagree with your belief and you do not answer questions others ask you. Isn't this a discussion forum?